Edward Snowden; Hero or villain?

[I1L2T3]

You must have a hell of a problem going through airport security then

 

"Please place your shoes in the box, your carry on bag on the belt and step through the metal detector"

 

YOU: "Why should I ? Why are you treating everyone including me as a potential terrorist or a hijacker. It's not right or fair" :hihi:

 

Note

In the case of shoes in the box every passenger passing thru an airport terminal in the US must now place his or her shoes in a plastic box to be x-rayed. Even 75 year old grandmothers from Kansas.

Thanks to Richard Reid formerly resident of London UK and now currently residing in US federal penitentiary

 

The price of safety and well being has been at the cost iof losing some personal liberties along with individual dignity.

 

I dont give a hoot who wants to listen in on my phone calls or the stuff I post on the forum. I have nothing to hide and if it stops another 9/11 happening or even one life caused by an act of terror then it's a reasonable price to pay.

 

Another weak argument. There are well known laws that cover usage of airports. Everybody knows what is required.

 

What was happening at the NSA was not known to the public.

 

I've got nothing to hide either. That isn't the point.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Voilà the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution :

 

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

 

The last three line, by the way, describe what I mean by due legal process.

 

So I will ask you again Harleyman : who was violating the constitution ? The NSA or Snowden ?

 

And if you stick with your line of the ends justifying the means, is the US constitution still worth the paper it was written on ?

 

...

 

It appears that NSA was violating the Constitution. Snowden is not charged with violating the US Constitution, he is charged with betraying the secrecy oath he made voluntarily.

 

If you want to dig into NSA and the Constitution - go ahead. (I'm sure many Americans would like answers to that, too.)

 

NSA does not operate independently. It acts on orders 'received from above'

 

Who do you think is ultimately responsible for ordering NSA to act as it did?

 

(You'd better not answer that! - The Democrats will accuse you of trying to bring down the first black president.)

 

When Harry Truman was President, he had a sign on his desk in Key West (and the sign is still there) which said: "The buck stops here."

 

It appears that the modern version of that sign reads: "It's time to pass the buck."

[ronthenekred]

It appears that NSA was violating the Constitution. Snowden is not charged with violating the US Constitution, he is charged with betraying the secrecy oath he made voluntarily.

 

 

Was he given enough information before he made the voluntary oath? If so does it conflict with the oath of allegiance, which the federal court seems to think is a is a croc of .

 

So many oaths flying around over there it must be difficult to come to any conclusion let alone one.

[Halibut]

Hero. Obviously.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Hero. For one simple fact. He has exposed the extent of information gathering on ordinary people.

 

The argument that the information gets sifted is weak, because they have already shown they can record almost all everybody's online and telecomms activity and store it for 30 days.

 

Who had any idea they were doing this or even capable of it.

 

Now consider how much of a step it is to start storing ever greater volumes of data, introducing ever more sophisticated analysis. Longer storage times.

 

Then imagine what if our democracy is even further diluted. Do you want the state to be holding info like this about you and ready to use it in arbitrary ways it sees fit.

 

Who could have imagined the snoopers charter was actually retrospective legislation.

 

This started under Labour and continued under the coalition. All the main parties are scum who will abuse our freedoms in the blink of an eye. Snowden has shown you this. Realise what it means.

 

I'm amazed! If you're not told something every week, when you are told it again, is it really 'astonishing news'?

 

Do your remember James Bamford's book "The Puzzle Palace" published in 1982? It revealed quite a lot about the activities of NSA.

 

NSA is a very low-profile agency. (In the late 70s/early 80's it was often said that the initials stood for "No Such Agency"); people were loath to admit it even existed.

 

It's been common knowledge (since the publication of Bamford's book) that the NSA, along with its UK colleagues had extensive monitoring capabilities.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if NSA (and the UK side ) record every item of electronic communication, but I would be amazed to find that there were hundreds and thousands of people (People nobody has ever seen or ever heard of) reading every communication and making notes on it.

 

Why bother?

 

I've had my Facebook account hacked - So I closed it.

 

Somebody tried to hack my wife's bank account last week - So we had to change all the access codes.

 

One of my Credit cards was used to pay for the services aof a prostitute in St Petersburg. (I wasn't within 800 miles ofthe place. She got screwed twice, because the bank blocked the payment.) - So I had to change the credit card.

 

I'm plagued with (often largely irrelevant) sales pitches from people who have bought questionable information about me from internet data-mining companies.

 

I'm far more concerned about all of the above than I am about some analyst in Ft Meade reading my e-mails.

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 07:16 ----------

 

Was he given enough information before he made the voluntary oath? If so does it conflict with the oath of allegiance, which the federal court seems to think is a is a croc of .

 

So many oaths flying around over there it must be difficult to come to any conclusion let alone one.

 

I wasn't there when he took his oath, so I can't tell you.

 

Do you think that people who sign the Official Secrets Act in the UK are given sufficient information before they sign?

 

Do you think a blatant violation of the Official Secrets Act could be justified by saying: "I don't like keeping secrets and if I'd known what the secrets were I wouldn't have signed."?

 

If Snowden had had genuine doubts about what he was doing, he would have had access to senior personnel who would have provided him with guidance and counselling and - if he was still unhappy - moved him to other duties.

 

People who betray trust for idealistic reasons are just as guilty as those who are in it for the money.

[I1L2T3]

I'm amazed! If you're not told something every week, when you are told it again, is it really 'astonishing news'?

 

Do your remember James Bamford's book "The Puzzle Palace" published in 1982? It revealed quite a lot about the activities of NSA.

 

NSA is a very low-profile agency. (In the late 70s/early 80's it was often said that the initials stood for "No Such Agency"); people were loath to admit it even existed.

 

It's been common knowledge (since the publication of Bamford's book) that the NSA, along with its UK colleagues had extensive monitoring capabilities.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if NSA (and the UK side ) record every item of electronic communication, but I would be amazed to find that there were hundreds and thousands of people (People nobody has ever seen or ever heard of) reading every communication and making notes on it.

 

Why bother?

 

I've had my Facebook account hacked - So I closed it.

 

Somebody tried to hack my wife's bank account last week - So we had to change all the access codes.

 

One of my Credit cards was used to pay for the services aof a prostitute in St Petersburg. (I wasn't within 800 miles ofthe place. She got screwed twice, because the bank blocked the payment.) - So I had to change the credit card.

 

I'm plagued with (often largely irrelevant) sales pitches from people who have bought questionable information about me from internet data-mining companies.

 

I'm far more concerned about all of the above than I am about some analyst in Ft Meade reading my e-mails.

 

Then you are still missing the point.

 

In technical terms what they have built is a foundation for mass analysis of everything everybody does, mass storage of the raw data and mass storage of the results.

 

You may feel safe now and feel you have nothing to hide. You may not later. And they will know everything about you and your family. And they may use it against you.

 

You live in Germany don't you?

[WeX]

It's called irony, WeX. Hard to spot, but a right laugh once you get there.

 

oooh

---

[Mister M]

I think Hero.

 

I think the way that poor Bradley Manning has been treated shows America up.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Then you are still missing the point.

 

In technical terms what they have built is a foundation for mass analysis of everything everybody does, mass storage of the raw data and mass storage of the results.

 

They built that foundation 30 years ago. There's nothing new about it now and although much of the detail of NSA operations is indeed kept secret, there has been little doubt about their capabilities (because they've announced them) for years.

 

You may feel safe now and feel you have nothing to hide. You may not later. And they will know everything about you and your family. And they may use it against you.

 

I do have nothing to hide (or rather, I'm not so stupid that I would put those things I wish to hide in a place where anybody else could find them.

 

Like you (I suspect) I don't relish the idea of (even well-motivated) people spying on me - and I'm not at all keen on being kept under surveillance.

 

Unfortunately, we live in a world where surveillance systems are increasingly common.

 

You live in Germany don't you?

Yes I do - Between May and September. Between September and May I live in Florida.

 

And your point is?

 

There are far fewer surveillance devices where I live in Germany (or where I live in Florida) than there are in the UK.

 

In the town in which I live in Bavaria, there is a total of Zero cameras (unless you count the camera on the Bank ATM.)

 

Where I live in Florida, there is a security guard on the gate (to deter people from trying to come in and burgle houses ... though that message got through to the local burglar population some years ago but other than that, there are no cameras.

 

If you use Google Earth to look at where I live in Florida, you will be disappointed. The cameras were not allowed past the gate.

 

Much of what I do is monitored. Every debit/credit card purchase, every online purchase and (sometimes) shop purchases. It's getting more and more difficult to use cash, but that's a minor problem.

 

I don't trust governments. - Any government.

 

But I try not to get paranoid about them, either.

[alchresearch]

Hero for me too.