Edward Snowden; Hero or villain?

[Mecky]

The guy is a hero. He saw what he thought was wrong and exposed it. Its a shame he is the exception rather than the norm.

 

Would he be a hero if he grassed on you to the world stage?

[psynuk]

Would he be a hero if he grassed on you to the world stage?

 

yes, thats the whole point isn't it?

 

If I'm doing something that is 'wrong' then to have that revealed is part of the risk I take.

The wholesale invasion of privacy by a secret government dept is wrong.

Their 'outrage' at being outed is laughable at best and scary at worst.

 

But hey ho 'terrorism' makes anything ok in the eyes of certain people.

[buck]

The Constitution is a fine document, probably the finest document guaranteeing the freedom and rights of citizenry ever written but Thomas Jefferson never imagined what the problems of the 21st century would be in dealing with threats against his newly created republic. I shouldn't even have to say this as it's as plain as the nose on your face.

 

You can either be pragmatic or naively idealistic.

 

Snowden is a traitor that's all. he's provided information detrimental to security just as your traitors Blunt, Burgess and McLean did back in the 1960s

Remember you're talking to a country that is purer than gold. How dare you, sir!

[erebus]

Well done, so the easily led fall for the prescribed media approach, ..Concentrating on the messenger, making the messenger the point of the exercise so one can then ignore the message, which is the point. The implications of the message appears never to be fully addressed, not easy for simple peoples, the easily led, the population where a section of the brain used for originality has been neutered.

 

When the Berlin wall fell, it gave the security services a chance to see how the Stasi controlled their population, the methodology of specific social engineering. They had written files on everyone, and everything including gossip, opinion and such. So generations of cross referenced information, allows the newborn to be tagged for life, if their lineage is questionable.

 

So what might it mean for the "common people" in the UK??? Well your friends, and their friends, and their friends, as well as direct family connections are automatically made. So if someone within this area of surveillance does something even if you do not know them personally, or your children know them, you automatically tarred with this brush, on your file. So from white to grey, well a shade of it anyway. This process is intergenerational, so let us hope no one knows anyone that has been on a demonstration, been disruptive in their education period, makes a point of pointing out the follies of public figures, had a traffic fine, talking or writing about public figures or corporations, as they are all potentially in a certain social climate, terrorists of some sort or another.

 

Such grading of people with their current and historical trace of family and friends, allows with the touch of a button to influence health waiting lists, bank accounts, and all the connections to services they take for granted. Mistakes happen and can be made to happen. People also have accidents, cars malfunction, people trip up at inappropriate moments especially if they are perceived as potentially dangerous, and dangerous can be talking and having inappropriate opinions at a particular historical time..

 

So do not fret today, as the game against us all has not really started, it is a long term ongoing thing, your children and their children’ generation and so on. What sort of world might they be living in that such controls might appear to be needed to be enforced? We all know that the justice system is being changed, so, if you cannot afford to pay for legal advice then Eddie Stobart and other corporate interests will go through the formalities, while fleecing you, for corporate profit of course, and do next to nothing in the new corporate run legal system.

 

So is it about Cameron, Labour, Conservative, Liberal or whatever??? Well NO! but the plebs need people to blame, and corporate interests need visible scapegoats, and politicians, civil servants will do. Change the corporate plans on profiteering? You must be joking! It’s a long term thing, to be introduced over a decade or so, with appropriate legislation thus legalising the illegal, as deregulation proved. Getting the pieces in place, the police with enough ear gas, rubber and real bullets for the new militarised police. Getting ordinary people to inform on neighbours, everyone mistrusting the other, thus divide and rule is taken to an individual level, even within families. But that is the future, and lets get back to the irrelevance of whether the Messenger was right or wrong, simplistic viewpoints for simple peoples.

[Harleyman]

It appears that NSA was violating the Constitution. Snowden is not charged with violating the US Constitution, he is charged with betraying the secrecy oath he made voluntarily.

 

If you want to dig into NSA and the Constitution - go ahead. (I'm sure many Americans would like answers to that, too.)

 

NSA does not operate independently. It acts on orders 'received from above'

 

Who do you think is ultimately responsible for ordering NSA to act as it did?

 

(You'd better not answer that! - The Democrats will accuse you of trying to bring down the first black president.)

 

When Harry Truman was President, he had a sign on his desk in Key West (and the sign is still there) which said: "The buck stops here."

 

It appears that the modern version of that sign reads: "It's time to pass the buck."

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:31 ----------

 

Remember you're talking to a country that is purer than gold. How dare you, sir!

 

You have to know that Snowden would be right away seen as a hero on this forum. Knee jerk reaction

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:33 ----------

 

They built that foundation 30 years ago. There's nothing new about it now and although much of the detail of NSA operations is indeed kept secret, there has been little doubt about their capabilities (because they've announced them) for years.

 

You may feel safe now and feel you have nothing to hide. You may not later. And they will know everything about you and your family. And they may use it against you.

 

I do have nothing to hide (or rather, I'm not so stupid that I would put those things I wish to hide in a place where anybody else could find them.

 

Like you (I suspect) I don't relish the idea of (even well-motivated) people spying on me - and I'm not at all keen on being kept under surveillance.

 

Unfortunately, we live in a world where surveillance systems are increasingly common.

 

Yes I do - Between May and September. Between September and May I live in Florida.

 

And your point is?

 

There are far fewer surveillance devices where I live in Germany (or where I live in Florida) than there are in the UK.

 

In the town in which I live in Bavaria, there is a total of Zero cameras (unless you count the camera on the Bank ATM.)

 

Where I live in Florida, there is a security guard on the gate (to deter people from trying to come in and burgle houses ... though that message got through to the local burglar population some years ago but other than that, there are no cameras.

 

If you use Google Earth to look at where I live in Florida, you will be disappointed. The cameras were not allowed past the gate.

 

Much of what I do is monitored. Every debit/credit card purchase, every online purchase and (sometimes) shop purchases. It's getting more and more difficult to use cash, but that's a minor problem.

 

I don't trust governments. - Any government.

But I try not to get paranoid about them, either.

 

I take it then that you are a non voter?

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:41 ----------

 

It appears that NSA was violating the Constitution. Snowden is not charged with violating the US Constitution, he is charged with betraying the secrecy oath he made voluntarily.

 

If you want to dig into NSA and the Constitution - go ahead. (I'm sure many Americans would like answers to that, too.)

 

NSA does not operate independently. It acts on orders 'received from above'

 

Who do you think is ultimately responsible for ordering NSA to act as it did?

 

(You'd better not answer that! - The Democrats will accuse you of trying to bring down the first black president.)

 

When Harry Truman was President, he had a sign on his desk in Key West (and the sign is still there) which said: "The buck stops here."

 

It appears that the modern version of that sign reads: "It's time to pass the buck."

 

Why it was George Bush of course back in 2005. Go to the back of the class Rupert

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:44 ----------

[Rupert_Baehr]

Much of what's happening now is happening because US government agencies are ignoring the (modified) terms of the Patriot Act.

 

When the Patriot Act was first debated, there was an outcry from groups trying to protect personal freedom because the original act allowed the government to intercept all mail., wich would contravene the 4th Amendment.

 

The government answer: "OK, we won't intercept the mail of US citizens."

 

Interesting. So foreigners do not receive protection under the 'Bill of Rights' in the US (I've known that for years )

 

Now that government agencies are intercepting the mail of US citizens, they could be accused of acting contrary to the terms of the Patriot Act.

 

Whether Snowden is arrested, meets with an 'unfortunate accident' or whatever, I think this story has a way to run yet.

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 17:00 ----------

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:31 ----------

 

You have to know that Snowden would be right away seen as a hero on this forum. Knee jerk reaction

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:33 ----------

 

 

I take it then that you are a non voter?

 

Now that my wife only gets one vote, I certainly do not vote.

(Read that as you will. )

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:41 ----------

Why it was George Bush of course back in 2005. Go to the back of the class Rupert

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:44 ----------

 

 

Indeed. But you and I both know it's a bit late to impeach Bush. Obama knew what was going on (one would hope) and did nothing to stop it.

[Harleyman]

Much of what's happening now is happening because US government agencies are ignoring the (modified) terms of the Patriot Act.

 

When the Patriot Act was first debated, there was an outcry from groups trying to protect personal freedom because the original act allowed the government to intercept all mail., wich would contravene the 4th Amendment.

 

The government answer: "OK, we won't intercept the mail of US citizens."

 

Interesting. So foreigners do not receive protection under the 'Bill of Rights' in the US (I've known that for years )

 

Now that government agencies are intercepting the mail of US citizens, they could be accused of acting contrary to the terms of the Patriot Act.

 

Whether Snowden is arrested, meets with an 'unfortunate accident' or whatever, I think this story has a way to run yet.

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 17:00 ----------

 

 

Now that my wife only gets one vote, I certainly do not vote.

(Read that as you will. )

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:41 ----------

 

 

 

 

Indeed. But you and I both know it's a bit late to impeach Bush. Obama knew what was going on (one would hope) and did nothing to stop it.

 

Presidents do not always have choices to steer a complete new course in policies from the policies of their predesessors. Anybody who has read history knows that already.

Eisenhower inherited the policy of containing Communism from Truman, Kennedy got caught up in Vietnam because of Eisenhowers growing involvment and Lyndon Johnson ultimately through Kennedy and so it goes on.

 

All Presidents when sworn in are expected to protect the nation from harm without and within "All enemies foreign and domestic" is the way it's put

 

It would be a foolish, even a stupid irresponsible President to just go ahead and stop any form of intelligence gathering against the advice of those who have been involved in gathering information on the activities of terrorist groups long before he took office.

If he did and another act of terror occured he would be impeached beyond a doubt and deservedly so.

 

Anyway the more this thread continues the more I think it's all turning into a big pile of bull**** I dont know why Sheffield folk should get their bowels in an uproar over something that doesnt even impact them. They are my phone records that are involved and I say that its quite okay... case closed

 

I'm off to play 9 holes on a nice cool summer morning

[dosxuk]

Anyway the more this thread continues the more I think it's all turning into a big pile of bull**** I dont know why Sheffield folk should get their bowels in an uproar over something that doesnt even impact them. They are my phone records that are involved and I say that its quite okay... case closed

 

US officials have defended the practice of gathering telephone and internet data from private users around the world.

 

They say Prism cannot be used to intentionally target any Americans or anyone in the US, and that it is supervised by judges.

 

You can't see why non-Americans, outside the US, might be interested in the story?

[syne]

He's patriotic to a fault.

 

' against the advice of those who have been involved in gathering information'

Would they EVER recommend anything else?

[Harleyman]

Now there's a pot, kettle, black quote if ever I saw one on here. Whenever anyone on here criticises the USA you jump in with a defence. It's as if you're routinely being paid by the US state to defend it on here.

 

 

 

Harleyman has already defended the My Lai massacre on here a year or two ago. He fought in Vietnam himself and said that people had been convicted for it when in fact one person spent one day in custody or similar for it. He's clearly earning a buck or two courtesy of the US taxpayer to write this rubbish.

 

Any comments on the Derry Bloody Sunday massacre while we're discussing war stories? Paras shooting down unarmed UK citizens in the streets. Not one of the officers or NCOs who were in charge disciplined in any way. Oh lets not forget the Black and Tans either. Then there's the massacre at Amritsar, India. 500 Indian subjects of the king gunned down in minutes The officer who ordered the shooting .. a colonel was fully exonerated after a hearing was held You'd better brush up on your history before you start preaching to me about atrocities

 

 

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 22:25 ----------

 

You can't see why non-Americans, outside the US, might be interested in the story?

 

I'm surprised that none of the leaders in the Peoples Soviet Republic of Sheffield has yet stepped forward to offer asylum

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 22:29 ----------

 

Much of what's happening now is happening because US government agencies are ignoring the (modified) terms of the Patriot Act.

 

When the Patriot Act was first debated, there was an outcry from groups trying to protect personal freedom because the original act allowed the government to intercept all mail., wich would contravene the 4th Amendment.

 

The government answer: "OK, we won't intercept the mail of US citizens."

 

Interesting. So foreigners do not receive protection under the 'Bill of Rights' in the US (I've known that for years )

 

Now that government agencies are intercepting the mail of US citizens, they could be accused of acting contrary to the terms of the Patriot Act.

 

Whether Snowden is arrested, meets with an 'unfortunate accident' or whatever, I think this story has a way to run yet.

 

---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 17:00 ----------

 

 

Now that my wife only gets one vote, I certainly do not vote.

(Read that as you will. )---------- Post added 24-06-2013 at 16:41 ----------

 

[/color]

 

 

 

 

it.

 

Why not vote yourself? I can understand someone who votes but feels unhappy about the outcome but someome who doesnt vote fully deserves the government they end up with. How about that other leader of yours.. Angela the Wagnerian Valkyrie? Was she worth a vote?