The end of free treatment from the NHS.

[Staunton]

I don't disagree with you, but if the NHS is going to be fixed, then the nation (and that's the people) is/are going to have to come up with the money to do the fixing.

 

Privatisation is one way of raising money (though it may not be the best.)

 

What alternative do you suggest?

 

I propose a reformed, rationalised National Health Service, fully funded by taxation from an anti-fragile HMRC that collects taxes due from all eligible UK citizens and from all businesses operating in the UK.

[truman]

We'd have to suppose a figure.

 

£50. There. *shrugs*

 

You really need to be aiming your humour? at Staunton...

[Staunton]

Still doesn't answer the question...how much would the railways be costing the country if they were still state owned..

 

To begin scrutinising precise figures and engaging in speculation would be to miss the point. The real question is why the privatised rail system costs us the taxpayer more today than it did when it was in public hands?

 

This theme indicates that behind the privatisation project that has been rolled out since the early 80s, there is a clear process - that of big business taking over public institutions, stripping the assets, paying ordinary people less, and taking huge profits at the expense of the taxpayer - this is augmented by the cynical irony of tax avoiders helping themselves to taxpayers money.

 

The friendly man that fixed my car last month earns his money, and he pays his taxes. Virgin Trains is paid by the taxpayer, and offshore their profits.

[truman]

To begin scrutinising precise figures and engaging in speculation would be to miss the point. The real question is why the privatised rail system costs us the taxpayer more today than it did when it was in public hands?

 

This theme indicates that behind the privatisation project that has been rolled out since the early 80s, there is a clear process - that of big business taking over public institutions, stripping the assets, paying ordinary people less, and taking huge profits at the expense of the taxpayer - this is augmented by the cynical irony of tax avoiders helping themselves to taxpayers money.

 

The friendly man that fixed my car last month earns his money, and he pays his taxes. Virgin Trains is paid by the taxpayer, and offshore their profits.

 

Unless you can show that it would cost us less if it were still in public hands then your argument is meaningless...in my opinion of course

[onewheeldave]

I propose a reformed, rationalised National Health Service, fully funded by taxation from an anti-fragile HMRC that collects taxes due from all eligible UK citizens and from all businesses operating in the UK.

 

Sounds good. What's 'anti-fragile' mean though?

[Staunton]

Sounds good. What's 'anti-fragile' mean though?

 

Anti-fragile is a way of saying that something needs to be more than just robust or strong. Revenue systems are more or less designed to be got round, avoided, evaded, by those with the wherewithal and the right connections - the system is designed to be fragile.

 

Indeed, it has become almost meaningless to talk about tax avoidance, since in the rhetoric of the multinationals they do no wrong. What they do is structure their business in such a way that they are not liable for tax. This is a scandal, perpetrated by neoliberal politicians on behalf of their corporate friends, and until there is a very strong confrontation of these techniques, there will be a continuing crisis in the revenue agencies of states across the globe.

[Obelix]

Still doesn't answer the question...how much would the railways be costing the country if they were still state owned..

 

Especially considering that we have many more people using the railways, and we demand much more from them in terms of safety and speed as well....

[Staunton]

Unless you can show that it would cost us less if it were still in public hands then your argument is meaningless...in my opinion of course

 

I fully appreciate truman's scepticism. My information is anecdotal and comes from a friend who just happens to be an accountant in the transport sector. I had trouble believing the claim myself. But I am assured that it is true.

 

However, I have discovered a couple of links that seem to shed some light on the issue:

 

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/display/?id=10111

 

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391

[truman]

I fully appreciate truman's scepticism. My information is anecdotal and comes from a friend who just happens to be an accountant in the transport sector. I had trouble believing the claim myself. But I am assured that it is true.

 

However, I have discovered a couple of links that seem to shed some light on the issue:

 

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/display/?id=10111

 

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391

 

I read both of those earlier.. neither say what the cost to the tax payer would be if the railways were still nationalised...

[Staunton]

I read both of those earlier.. neither say what the cost to the tax payer would be if the railways were still nationalised...

 

It is important not to be distracted by futile speculation. The point being made is that the privatised railway system continues to make an enormous demand upon the public purse simultaneously with the delivery of vast profits to the corporate sector. Privatisation was sold as the dawn of efficiency, but has been exposed as a tax-grab.

 

Now that the NHS has been opened up to privatisation, we can anticipate the very same process, with taxpayers (that is you and me) facing ever increasing demands while the corporate sector profits, structuring their business model across the offshore economy, making astonishing salary and bonus contributions to their executives, forcing down the wages, terms and conditions of front line-staff, and depleting the quality and availability of essential services.

 

And now, we are beginning to hear those inevitable calls for charging to be introduced.