10 years since the death of David Kelly.

[Longcol]

I take it you haven't bothered to read many of the posts on here then.

I suggest you start with catpus above, then do a little investigating of your own.

 

Re: Hillsborough - Mistakes happen, everyone can accept that.

What is not acceptable is trying to cover it up by lying, altering statements and besmirching the reputations of the victims, whilst relying on your own reputation as the unasailable upholders of the law. That's corruption.

 

Yes I have - most are "cherry picked" quotes that mean nothing. I see you haven't responded to any of my refutations. For instance, have your read any of the Hutton Report. If you had you'd find 3 of the first 4 people to get to Kelly describe him as lying on his back with his head at the base of a tree. The 4th describes him sitting with his back to a tree. The 4th was the furthest away. CT's cite this as "evidence" he was moved.

 

You probably haven't read Taylor either. He praised the honesty of the PC's at pitchside who tried their best and was highly critical of the evasiveness of senior police. Where do you think everyone got their cue from?

 

 

I do note you never ever seem to link to a hard fact - you seem to prefer some other poor sod to do the hard work for you - in this case the hapless catpus.

 

Come on Anna - what's your best bit of evidence that Kelly was murdered?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Longcol

[Anna B]

Yes I have - most are "cherry picked" quotes that mean nothing. I see you haven't responded to any of my refutations. For instance, have your read any of the Hutton Report. If you had you'd find 3 of the first 4 people to get to Kelly describe him as lying on his back with his head at the base of a tree. The 4th describes him sitting with his back to a tree. The 4th was the furthest away. CT's cite this as "evidence" he was moved.

 

You probably haven't read Taylor either. He praised the honesty of the PC's at pitchside who tried their best and was highly critical of the evasiveness of senior police. Where do you think everyone got their cue from?

 

 

I do note you never ever seem to link to a hard fact - you seem to prefer some other poor sod to do the hard work for you - in this case the hapless catpus.

 

Come on Anna - what's your best bit of evidence that Kelly was murdered?

 

Just off the top of my head, (it's late) how do you explain the lack of blood at the site when he supposedly bled to death, his ability to cut his wrist with a weak hand and blunt knife, lack of fingerprints? Just for starters.

[Longcol]

Just off the top of my head, (it's late) how do you explain the lack of blood at the site when he supposedly bled to death, his ability to cut his wrist with a weak hand and blunt knife, lack of fingerprints? Just for starters.

 

Knife was bound with tape that you can't leave fingerprints on.

 

Who said the knife was blunt? Not the forensic pathologist who did the post mortem.

 

I've already covered lack of blood - do you really expect pools of blood on earth hours after death. Post mortem found substantial blood loss - oh and he had a heart condition previously undiscovered that may well have contributed to his death.

 

Who said he was unable to cut his wrist with which weak hand?

[Anna B]

Knife was bound with tape that you can't leave fingerprints on.

 

Who said the knife was blunt? Not the forensic pathologist who did the post mortem.

 

I've already covered lack of blood - do you really expect pools of blood on earth hours after death. Post mortem found substantial blood loss - oh and he had a heart condition previously undiscovered that may well have contributed to his death.

 

Who said he was unable to cut his wrist with which weak hand?

 

Mai Pedersen, a US airforce colleague.

 

Maybe you'd like to give a response to all of Catpus's points in turn. I think the onus is on you to give a good blow by blow response as to why the case does not need to be looked at again, and why no inquest was required.

 

I would also like a response to my point about the corruption endemic in the Hillsborough enquiries.

[Obelix]

Mai Pedersen, a US airforce colleague.

 

Maybe you'd like to give a response to all of Catpus's points in turn. I think the onus is on you to give a good blow by blow response as to why the case does not need to be looked at again, and why no inquest was required.

 

I would also like a response to my point about the corruption endemic in the Hillsborough enquiries.

 

No - you and Catpus are attempting to refute the opinions of the expert pathologists who determined the cause of death. The onus is entirely on you to make your case, not on everyone else to demolish your house of cards, however easy that is. Pointing out minor supposed inconsistencies about how sharp a knife is, if someone had the upper or lower back to a tree, is not making the case - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Eli Nich]

10 years really? What the main reason of this injustice?

[Hemibr]

Mai Pedersen, a US airforce colleague.

 

Maybe you'd like to give a response to all of Catpus's points in turn. I think the onus is on you to give a good blow by blow response as to why the case does not need to be looked at again, and why no inquest was required.

 

I would also like a response to my point about the corruption endemic in the Hillsborough enquiries.

 

But didnt they also manage to corrupt the original inquest also by restricting the time of death to 3.15 and silencing the one coper ballsy enough to stuck by he justice with courage logo ?

 

My guess is you will get your inquest when Blair is too old or too frail or too dead to serve time.

[catpus]

I take it you haven't bothered to read many of the posts on here then.

I suggest you start with catpus above, then do a little investigating of your own.

 

Re: Hillsborough - Mistakes happen, everyone can accept that.

What is not acceptable is trying to cover it up by lying, altering statements and besmirching the reputations of the victims, whilst relying on your own reputation as the unasailable upholders of the law. That's corruption.

 

Hi Anna.

It appears to be a man thing.... they just can't be bothered to investigate for themselves, preferring to quote and believe whatever headlines they have read and seen in the media, instead of cross checking. Or pedantically focus on a word....

 

As you say re Hillsborough.. a mistake did happen... David Duckenfield in his wisdom decided that he didn't need to segregate the approaching fans, as had been done every other time... and when the tragedy happened he dug himself a big hole by lying through his teeth to cover the fact that he was incompetent. This was then compounded imo by all the senior PO's getting their heads together and orchestrating a campaign to make it look as though the Police were blameless, and to me this was unforgiveable.

But there will always be those who doggedly insist on believing the 'official story.'

http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2011/11/21/hillsborough-the-police-cover-up/

 

---------- Post added 31-07-2013 at 17:08 ----------

 

*Strange Death of David Kelly by Norman Baker MP.

David Kelly was a good man and we owe it to him to set aside the farce of the Hutton Inquiry, and create a new process that examines this matter officially, openly and with the rigour.

While investigating the death of Dr David Kelly I made many strange discoveries, not least disturbing parallels with the case of a young American journalist named Danny Casolaro, who made himself deeply unpopular with elements in the murky world of U.S. defence by probing too deeply into the activities of America's private security companies which, according to Sterling Seagrave, are linked to the 'Grey Ghosts' - an army of professional killers commissioned by the Pentagon to carry out assassinations.

One morning in August 1991, he was found dead in a bath, naked, with his wrist slashed, in a hotel room near Harpers Ferry in Virginia.

There were no signs of bruising or other marks on the body and the police concluded that he had committed suicide.

But this was totally false according to Dr Christopher Green, who was the CIA's chief forensic pathologist for decades.

Dr Green participated in Casolaro's autopsy and last year he told veteran White House reporter Sterling Seagrave that the young journalist had been killed before being stripped, put in a full bath, and his left wrist cut in precisely the same manner as Dr Kelly's.

And as with Dr Kelly, there was remarkably little blood, bar a small amount smeared on the edge of the tub, suggesting that the wrist wound had been inflicted after the heart had stopped pumping.

This compelling demonstration of how a murder can be disguised as suicide drove me on in my search for the truth about Dr Kelly, who was found dead in an Oxfordshire wood on July 18, 2003, having apparently taken his own life.

The similarities between the two deaths led Seagrave to suggest that Dr Kelly might also have fallen victim to these shadowy figures.

After all, he was the source behind a BBC report that the British government had 'sexed up' intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction to justify the invasion of Iraq. This can hardly have been well received by the White House...

Did they then try to disguise the murder as suicide for reasons of political expediency?

To understand what may have happened, we must return to Thursday, July 17, the day

Dr Kelly disappeared.

That morning he was at home with his wife Janice and it must be said that none of his behaviour fits the profile of a man about to commit suicide.

In her evidence to the Hutton inquiry into Dr Kelly’s death, his wife said he was ‘tired & subdued, but not depressed’. In fact it appears that it was Mrs Kelly, not her husband, who was more seriously under par.

During phone calls that morning to colleagues, Dr Kelly said that he was basically ‘holding up all right’, but his wife was having a difficult time, physically and mentally, under the pressure of long-standing ill health and the political storm that had engulfed them.

At lunchtime she went to bed with a nauseous headache and arthritis pains. He, on the other hand, appears to have carried on working normally, eaten some lunch and taken the trouble to go upstairs to check on his wife, shortly before 2pm, to see how she was feeling.

Given his obvious concern, it hardly seems likely that he would want to exacerbate matters for her by committing suicide that day.

Dr Kelly told his wife he would be going out for one of the regular walks he took to help his bad back. These were normally short affairs lasting no more than 25 minutes.

Mrs Kelly estimates that her husband left the house shortly after 3pm. With him, we are led to believe, he had the knife later found by his corpse and three packets of the painkillers his wife took for arthritis. These would later be discovered in his jacket pocket – empty but for ONE of the 30 tablets.

According to the Hutton inquiry, Dr Kelly set out on that walk intent on killing himself.

But, if so, why does he appear to have waited so long before doing it?

Since the pathologist inexplicably failed to take Dr Kelly’s body temperature when he first arrived on the scene the following day – a standard procedure which would have helped give an accurate time of death – we have to make our own deductions about when he died.

The pathologist offered a wide window of between 4.15pm on Thursday and 1.15am on Friday. But there is every reason to think this window is far too wide.

The Hutton inquiry heard that after Dr Kelly’s body was found on Friday morning, two paramedics moved his arm away from his chest at about 10am so that they could attach electrodes and confirm that he was dead.

Clearly, rigor mortis – the stiffening of the body – had not yet fully set in. Since it is generally accepted that it reaches its peak after 12 hours, we can assume that Dr Kelly most likely died at some time after 10pm on the Thursday night, and quite possibly much later.

What then happened to him in the missing hours – at least seven of them – between leaving home and supposedly killing himself?

The last person known to have seen Dr Kelly alive was his neighbour, Ruth Absalom, who met him about three-quarters of a mile from his home.

They passed the time of day briefly before going their separate ways. Dr Kelly’s parting words were: “See you again then, Ruth.”

According to Ms Absalom, he was heading towards the nearby village of Kingston Bagpuize.

That would be consistent with a circular half-hour walk back to his house – but in quite the wrong direction to reach Harrowrecords-down Hill, the lonely area of woodland where his body was discovered?

One of the few clues to what happened next is that Dr Kelly’s phone was switched off when a colleague from the Ministry of Defence tried to call him between 5pm and 6pm.

This was odd... Dr Kelly himself would tell friends that his mobile was always on and, given that he had been in regular contact with the MoD that morning, and that the furore surrounding him was developing from hour to hour, it seems unlikely that he would have turned it off or let the battery run down. If he did indeed intend to commit suicide, turning off his phone could be seen as a preliminary step. But for reasons I have made clear, I do not believe suicide is a credible explanation for his death.

This leaves us with an alternative possibility. Did someone else turn Dr Kelly’s phone off so that his movements could not be traced via signal kept by the phone company? In other words, was he forcibly abducted?

If he headed in the direction Ms Absalom described, his walk would probably have taken him along Appleton Road, a quiet and rather empty stretch with only sporadic development alongside.

From there he is likely to have turned right into Draycott Road, which is even more deserted. A no-through road with some derelict buildings part-way down, it peters out into a footpath at the end.

On either of these roads it would certainly have been relatively easy for determined abductors to have forced the 59-year-old weapons inspector into a van without anyone seeing.

According to the information I have been given, the murder itself was carried out by a couple of not very well-paid hired hands.

As to the method used, I am told that they gave Dr Kelly an injection in his backside, which perhaps points to the use of succinylcholine, a white crystalline substance that acts as a muscle relaxant.

For less beneficent purposes, it can be used to induce paralysis and cardiac arrest and frequently goes undetected in post-mortems.

I asked Thames Valley Police whether the body had been checked for the presence of this or a similar substance. They told me that they did not know?

If this was not the substance used then, alarmingly, there appear to be a large number of other ways in which Dr Kelly might have been killed that would be difficult or even impossible to trace.

For this we can no doubt partly thank the work of Project Coast – a highly unpleasant chemical and biological warfare programme run by the South African government from 1981onwards to develop exactly such capabilities.

With aims including the creation of a biological weapon designed to attack the black population while leaving whites unscathed, its prime mover was Dr Wouter Basson, variously described as ‘the South African Mengele’ and ‘Dr Death’.

Ironically, in the week before Dr Kelly died, it is alleged he was due to be interviewed by

MI5 about his links with Dr Basson, who in 1985 had visited the Porton Down research centre, where Dr Kelly was then head of the Chemical Defence Establishment...

This visit had happened at a time when Mrs Thatcher’s government claimed that the South Africans were developing biological and chemical weapons solely for defensive purposes??

Only later was it revealed that they were working on chemicals such as Parathion, an Organophosphate that can be introduced into the body through hair follicles, perhaps under the arm or around the crutch.

This causes vomiting – evidence of which could be seen on Dr Kelly’s body – and leads to a respiratory attack. It is extremely difficult to detect traces of such a chemical in the body, unless you know what you are looking for.

When I tracked down Wouter Basson at his home in the Western Cape earlier this year, I asked him if he thought Dr Kelly had been murdered.

He paused, as if choosing his words carefully, then replied that Dr Kelly ‘didn’t seem the sort to commit suicide’.

He was also in no doubt that the UK, and indeed other Western countries, have a capacity for assassination.

Other possible methods of killing Dr Kelly included the use of Saxotoxin, found in some shellfish and known as the CIA Shellfish Toxin, after its alleged use by that agency to kill one of their targets. Even a tiny amount is effective seconds after injection and is completely untraceable after autopsy.

One Private Detective even suggested to me that Dr Kelly’s killers might have made gruesome misuse of the equipment employed by undertakers in embalming, placing a tube into an artery and forcibly pumping the blood out of the body.

This would cause unconsciousness and then death, and reinforce the assumption that the victim had lost a lot of blood through a cut – the conclusion reached by Lord Hutton in Dr Kelly’s case......

The Detective told me that this process did not need access to a main artery like the jugular, but could be achieved through, say, the ''ulnar artery.''

This was the one slashed with a knife in Dr Kelly’s wrist. Was that incision an attempt to cover up the artery’s previous use?

Another ghastly suggestion came to me from someone who signed themselves only as ‘Nemesis’. Their letter alleged that he or she had been told by a ‘member of the non-English diplomatic corps’ that air had been introduced into Dr Kelly’s bloodstream through a needle in a vein.

Apparently, if present in sufficient quantities, air in the major organs will kill and leave no scar. ‘Nemesis’ was in no doubt that this was how Dr Kelly’s life had ended. “His heart and lungs were full of air,” the letter said.

We know that the Pathologist did retain one of Dr Kelly’s lungs and some blood to test for substances such as Chloroform but Assistant Chief Constable Michael Page, who gave evidence at the Hutton inquiry, revealed that the tests to the lung had not actually been carried out.

This was, he said, because no suspicious substances had shown up in the blood tests.

Whatever method might have been used to murder Dr Kelly, we have to wonder why those responsible did not kill him immediately. There would have been no insurmountable obstacles to doing so, after all.

Perhaps his kidnappers wanted an opportunity to take him into the woods at Harrowdown Hill under cover of darkness to minimise the chances of being spotted or disturbed.

It certainly would not have been difficult to have given him a shot to render him temporarily unconscious until his assailants forced him to walk to the spot where he would be killed and found the next day.

If they drove him there, the closest they could have got by road was about half a mile from where his body was found.

That walk is rather a public one, but there is another route and one seemingly not investigated by the police.

This path runs from a remote reach of the River Thames, about 500 yards away, up through a field and into the woods. With no houses or other dwellings nearby, anybody walking here is unlikely to be seen, particularly in the dead of night.

Intriguingly, this area was searched the following morning by Louise Holmes and Paul Chapman, the two volunteers who eventually found Dr Kelly’s body.

They told the Hutton inquiry that some time after beginning their search at 8am they came across a group of three or four people in a boat and had a brief conversation with them.

Who they were, and what they were doing on the river at that time of the morning, has never been established. They could, of course, have been holidaymakers. But was the truth more sinister? Continued....

[catpus]

*The belly-dancing spy whose secrets they just ignored......

Uncorrected to this day, the transcripts of the Hutton Inquiry still refer to a mysterious figure called Mike Peddison, mentioned in the testimony of David Kelly's wife Janice as a family friend.

In fact, the transcribers misheard the name.

Mrs Kelly was talking about Mai Pederson - a belly dancing US Army sergeant who, according to both her ex-husbands, is a spy with an astonishing ability to bewitch men.

Charismatic and exotic, Ms Pederson was an Arab-American linguist whom David Kelly met in Iraq in 1998.

Jim Pederson, her former husband, suggests getting to know Dr Kelly was part of an official assignment.

"She undoubtedly viewed him as an intelligence source," he said.

Whether or not this was her motive, the two became close.

She introduced Dr Kelly to the Baha'i faith, which teaches ''respect for life and expressly forbids suicide.''

On his frequent trips to the U.S., Dr Kelly crossed from New York to California, where Ms Pederson was stationed, whenever he could. It was a long way to go just to say hello.

Postal records show that in the 16 months prior to Dr Kelly's death, Ms Pederson was registered at three different addresses in America where he was also registered as living.

As late as July 2003, the month Dr Kelly died, their names appear on the register for a house in Montgomery, Alabama.

They were an odd couple: he giving all the appearance of a boffin in his glasses, sports jacket and jeans; she fabulously attractive, seductively dressed and 16 years his junior.

After Dr Kelly's death, Ms Pederson was at pains, through her lawyer, to reject suggestions that their relationship was anything but platonic.

She claimed he simply used her address to secure loans ? which seems unlikely given that he could have used his existing British credit references.

Pederson told the Mail on Sunday that she did not believe that Kelly commited suicide

Lord Hutton told me that he had first learnt of Ms Pederson through press reports and asked the Thames Valley Police to interview her in the States. Two detectives flew out and spent two days questioning her.

Later, he was assured by the police that she had nothing to say about Dr Kelly that was not available from other sources.

This seems strange. After all, she appeared uniquely placed to offer insights into his personality and frame of mind.

Indeed, an interview she subsequently gave to the Mail on Sunday was electric in its content.

She bluntly said she did not believe Dr Kelly committed suicide and revealed that he hated all types of pills.

I have since learned that on one occasion she visited Dr Kelly's home in Oxfordshire, and when she said she was in pain for some reason, Janice Kelly offered her some of the co-proxamol pills she took for arthritis.

She accepted, but Dr Kelly criticised his wife for offering tablets prescribed for her alone.

This can only reinforce doubts that he chose to kill himself by ingesting 29 of these tablets.

Platonic friend or not, Ms Pederson was clearly a key figure in David Kelly's life.

It is difficult to see how Thames Valley Police concluded she had nothing of interest to say.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-489172/David-Kelly-The-belly-dancing-spy-secrets-just-ignored.html

 

Dr David Kelly did not kill himself. From what I have read he was an honest and honourable man. His daughter was about to get married for goodness sake. No way on earth would a man like him kill himself before he could walk her down the aisle....

 

The pathologist who carried out the post-mortem on weapons inspector Dr David Kelly is under investigation after 'mixing up' two service men's remains.

Dr Nicholas Hunt is at the centre of an official probe after being criticised for making 14 mistakes in his report on the death of Senior Aircraftman Christopher Bridge in Afghanistan.

He recorded wrongly the airman's height, weight, hair and eye colour and reported that the man on whom he performed the autopsy had three tattoos, whereas SAC Bridge had none.

His examination was also signed as taking place two weeks before the serviceman died.

Dr Hunt was criticised by the coroner at SAC Bridge's inquest in Sheffield this week after it emerged he had to issue three reports before all the information was finally correct.

The airman's mother said she was 'suicidal' fearing she had buried the wrong body.

Now the Disciplinary Committee for Forensic Pathologists (DCFP) has confirmed it is investigating the blunders.

Not only is the development worrying because Dr Hunt is responsible for conducting post-mortems on the bodies of all servicemen killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it raises fresh questions about the death of Dr Kelly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1300935/Official-probe-Dr-Kellys-post-mortem-pathologist-mixed-servicemens-remains.html

 

A forensic scientist who investigated the death of Iraq war whistle-blower Dr David Kelly was a rookie on her first big case.

The inexperienced assistant had never previously attended the scene of a suspicious death or unexplained killing, the Mirror can reveal.

And in a separate development yesterday it was confirmed the pathologist who examined Dr Kelly is being investigated over a series of astonishing blunders in another case.

The news led for renewed calls for a fresh inquiry into the death of the weapons inspector, who was exposed as the source of a BBC report saying the Government had “sexed-up” a dossier that helped take Britain into the Iraq war.

Senior detectives last night expressed surprise that a junior scientist had been sent to the scene when Dr Kelly’s body was found in woods on July 18, 2003.

Until two months earlier she had spent almost all her time in laboratories, testing clothes for body fluids and had rarely worked in the field.

Her role at Harrowdown Hill near Dr Kelly’s Oxfordshire home, was to help advise police on what to look for and how to gather evidence. In doing so, she played a crucial part in the Hutton Inquiry which concluded Dr Kelly, 59, killed himself by slashing his left wrist after taking 29 painkillers.

That verdict has now been questioned by leading doctors, lawyers and politicians who are backing growing demands for a full inquest.

The rookie scientist was not called to give evidence at the inquiry. But her presence in the crucial early hours of the probe “raised eyebrows” at the time, sources reveal.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/forensic-scientist-who-investigated-death-241932#ixzz2adUcVS4c

 

Lastly....

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0609/S00221.htm

[Electerrific]

It appears to be a man thing.... they just can't be bothered to investigate for themselves, preferring to quote and believe whatever headlines they have read and seen in the media, instead of cross checking. Or pedantically focus on a word....

Please don't label all males as such, like some sexist ignoramus. Thanks