Fracking in Sheffield?

[unbeliever]

Yes I did.

 

Your point about efficiency of land use is in the Green Gas Report on Ecotricity's website.

 

They do seem to have thought this through rather well and describe significant benefits for the environment and rural economy.

 

Compared with fracking, this looks marvellous. In the "Interviews with Dale" page on their website, Ecotricity's founder explains why and how they are going head-on against fracking.

 

 

 

Seems reasonable. The need for heating is highest in winter; the solar production is highest in summer; we'd be better off with passivhaus houses which do not need heating. It's all a mix and we need to nudge it along in a sustainable direction.

 

Most people can't afford such houses.

What will we do for food when all the land is wasted in the way you describe?

[Robin-H]

Yes I did.

 

Your point about efficiency of land use is in the Green Gas Report on Ecotricity's website.

 

They do seem to have thought this through rather well and describe significant benefits for the environment and rural economy.

 

Compared with fracking, this looks marvellous. In the "Interviews with Dale" page on their website, Ecotricity's founder explains why and how they are going head-on against fracking.

 

Seems reasonable. The need for heating is highest in winter; the solar production is highest in summer; we'd be better off with passivhaus houses which do not need heating. It's all a mix and we need to nudge it along in a sustainable direction.

 

I've read the Green Gas Report. It states that a typical Green Gas Mill at 5MW will require about 3,000 acres. It states that 5,000 Green Gas Mills would be required in order to meet 97% of Britain's households.

 

This is assuming that energy use will fall. Currently it states a 5MW Mill can provide gas for 3,500 homes. In order to produce 97% of the country's gas needs it each mill would need to power over 5,300 homes. That is also assuming the number of households will not increase.

 

This would take 15,000,000 acres of land. This is 35.7% of all agricultural land in the UK, indeed is about the same amount as the country's entire arable farmland.

 

It seems like a big ask to me.

[Flexo]

Most people can't afford such houses.

 

The University of Cardiff showed that a passivhaus can be built within the government's guidance of £1000/sq ft.

 

A passivhaus has massively lower running costs than a badly built house. A typical heating bill is something like £15/year.

 

If people cannot afford such houses then they certainly can't afford the more expensive option of worse houses!

 

However, that is merely the direction in which we need to travel and is going away from the topic.

 

What will we do for food when all the land is wasted in the way you describe?

 

Do stop making things up.

 

From the website:

 

Theoretically, we could produce 66% of domestic and commercial gas demand from grass on marginal farmland by 2035. So there is vast potential for green gas to make a big contribution in reducing carbon emissions and making Britain more energy independent.

 

We can harvest naturally occurring grasses from marginal grazing and lower quality arable farmland, increasing biodiversity and providing environmental benefits at the same time.

 

Sourcing grass from marginal land previously used for grazing livestock, we can encourage wild-flowers to grow in the process.

 

We’ll also be growing a grass break-crop on lower quality arable land that farmers currently use to grow feed crops for livestock. Done in rotation every few years, this will actually improve the quality of the soil and bring it back into food production, with the addition of a natural fertiliser.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2017 at 11:21 ----------

 

I've read the Green Gas Report. It states that a typical Green Gas Mill at 5MW will require about 3,000 acres. It states that 5,000 Green Gas Mills would be required in order to meet 97% of Britain's households.

 

This is assuming that energy use will fall. Currently it states a 5MW Mill can provide gas for 3,500 homes. In order to produce 97% of the country's gas needs it each mill would need to power over 5,300 homes. That is also assuming the number of households will not increase.

 

This would take 15,000,000 acres of land. This is 35.7% of all agricultural land in the UK, indeed is about the same amount as the country's entire arable farmland.

 

It seems like a big ask to me.

 

How much fracking would it take to meet the same demand, for how many years would that supply last and what is the environmental cost?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Flexo

[unbeliever]

The University of Cardiff showed that a passivhaus can be built within the government's guidance of £1000/sq ft.

 

A passivhaus has massively lower running costs than a badly built house. A typical heating bill is something like £15/year.

 

If people cannot afford such houses then they certainly can't afford the more expensive option of worse houses!

 

However, that is merely the direction in which we need to travel and is going away from the topic.

 

 

 

Do stop making things up.

 

From the website:

 

Theoretically, we could produce 66% of domestic and commercial gas demand from grass on marginal farmland by 2035. So there is vast potential for green gas to make a big contribution in reducing carbon emissions and making Britain more energy independent.

 

We can harvest naturally occurring grasses from marginal grazing and lower quality arable farmland, increasing biodiversity and providing environmental benefits at the same time.

 

Sourcing grass from marginal land previously used for grazing livestock, we can encourage wild-flowers to grow in the process.

 

We’ll also be growing a grass break-crop on lower quality arable land that farmers currently use to grow feed crops for livestock. Done in rotation every few years, this will actually improve the quality of the soil and bring it back into food production, with the addition of a natural fertiliser.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2017 at 11:21 ----------

 

 

How much fracking would it take to meet the same demand and for how many years would that supply last?

 

 

All these technologies will be obsolete long before Fracked gas runs out.

Your plans are ridiculous, and rather blatantly so. It would be horrendously expensive, completely impractical and you'll have people starving on top of freezing.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2017 at 11:24 ----------

 

How to you get the grass from the fields to the processing plants?

 

I ask because the rather famously it uses more diesel to generate Ethanol to add to petrol than you save in petrol by using the additive. Ethanol tends to be made from high energy density crops like sugar and maize, so it must be rather a lot worse for this effect. Any comment?

Edited March 24, 2017 by unbeliever

[Obelix]

 

Theoretically, we could produce 66% of domestic and commercial gas demand from grass on marginal farmland by 2035.

 

So that's about 50TWh (current is 335TWh of which 30% is gas. So 100tWh, lets call that half assuming we get more efficient)

 

50TWh is 1.8*10^17J

 

Land in the UK produces the following amounts of energy.

 

1 Grow grass. At best 4% efficient. Light input is 315W sq m so over a year you get 9.7x10^9J per meter then times 0.04, so you get 4x10^8 J per sqm per year, so that's 500 million square meters, or 500 square kilometres

 

 

 

You have to collect the grass - not insignificant since you have to do it nonstop, and that includes the root systems too, so you have to lay new grass, which takes time and energy to grow. You are not going to get all the grass, so I would expect you to want at least double that area to offset these problems. Your energy requirements to collect it are not going to be insignificant compuding the problem.

 

Solar panels will need for the same energy collection 80 square kilometres.

 

Put them on rooftops and car parks and you've hit that limit already. without displacing large amounts of useful things like cows and sheep - and that's what they are talking about doing.

 

All from a position of ignorance, naturally....

Edited March 24, 2017 by Obelix

[Flexo]

You have to collect the grass

 

Solar panels will need for the same energy collection 80 square kilometres.

 

Yes it's a transitional technology to keep the old boilers running while we achieve a decarbonised energy grid with solar and battery storage and so on that we will have in the future. I totally agree on solar - it's blooming daft that they are making buildings that have roofs which are not solar collectors.

 

A "green gas mill" seems to be much the same as a silage tower. Very easy and cheap to pop up and so you can build them very near to the grass production.

 

What's best for Stannington? Fracking with its attendant risks, or a green gas mill? There is a huge amount of grassland very close by so the fuel can be produced really easily and will benefit local farmers. No cows or sheep displaced

[Obelix]

Yes it's a transitional technology to keep the old boilers running while we achieve a decarbonised energy grid with solar and battery storage and so on that we will have in the future. I totally agree on solar - it's blooming daft that they are making buildings that have roofs which are not solar collectors.

 

A "green gas mill" seems to be much the same as a silage tower. Very easy and cheap to pop up and so you can build them very near to the grass production.

 

What's best for Stannington? Fracking with its attendant risks, or a green gas mill? There is a huge amount of grassland very close by so the fuel can be produced really easily and will benefit local farmers. No cows or sheep displaced

 

Why do you think that grass is grown now, and mown and whats it get fed to?

[unbeliever]

Yes it's a transitional technology to keep the old boilers running while we achieve a decarbonised energy grid with solar and battery storage and so on that we will have in the future. I totally agree on solar - it's blooming daft that they are making buildings that have roofs which are not solar collectors.

 

A "green gas mill" seems to be much the same as a silage tower. Very easy and cheap to pop up and so you can build them very near to the grass production.

 

What's best for Stannington? Fracking with its attendant risks, or a green gas mill? There is a huge amount of grassland very close by so the fuel can be produced really easily and will benefit local farmers. No cows or sheep displaced

 

Batteries!?!

Do you know how much it would cost to store a day's worth of electricity in batteries?

This is just daft.

[Flexo]

Why do you think that grass is grown now, and mown and whats it get fed to?

 

I reckon there's ample spare. I am trusting the assertions from Ecotricity there. Done right, it could be a very good thing for the Peak District.

[unbeliever]

I reckon there's ample spare. I am trusting the assertions from Ecotricity there. Done right, it could be a very good thing for the Peak District.

 

What is the energy cost of collecting the grass and preparing it for energy generation?