Fracking in Sheffield?

[Flexo]

Batteries!?!

Do you know how much it would cost to store a day's worth of electricity in batteries?

This is just daft.

 

Yes I do.

 

Big clue -- average domestic electricity consumption is 9kWh. An electric car can store around three times that. There are several trials running already of using the cars to store electricity at off peak times so they can return it to the grid at peak times. You can go tell them how daft you think they are.

[unbeliever]

Yes I do.

 

Big clue -- average domestic electricity consumption is 9kWh. An electric car can store around three times that. There are several trials running already of using the cars to store electricity at off peak times so they can return it to the grid at peak times. You can go tell them how daft you think they are.

 

That's a small add-in scheme based on the assumption that the capital cost of the cars is already funded for purposes of transport.

 

How much would it cost to store a day's worth of electricity in batteries?

 

What is the energy cost of collecting the grass and preparing it for energy generation?

[Obelix]

Yes I do.

 

Big clue -- average domestic electricity consumption is 9kWh. An electric car can store around three times that. There are several trials running already of using the cars to store electricity at off peak times so they can return it to the grid at peak times. You can go tell them how daft you think they are.

 

So you want to replace the battery storage every say year and a half then? Because that's about the expected lifetime - whats the energy cost in recycling and making new batteries?

 

Cui bono - Ecotricity is selling electricity. Specifically green electricity. They are not too concerned as along as they are seen to be green, and they can sell the product. I'd encourage people to do their own numbers - as my rather quick and dirty reckoning shows the land requirements are huge, they have significant impacts that are not shown, and they have considerable deleterious knockon effects that I've not even begun to fully consider.

[Flexo]

So you want to replace the battery storage every say year and a half then? Because that's about the expected lifetime - whats the energy cost in recycling and making new batteries?

 

Actually with electric vehicles we're finding that the batteries are lasting far far better than ever anticipated. We now have lithium ion batteries that are good for 300,000 miles before their capacity is down to 80% of the original capacity. So they will outlast the rest of the vehicle.

 

At that time, they are still quite usable and can have a second life as home energy storage or grid energy storage.

 

At end of life, the lithium can be recovered.

 

You'll have to do your own research on energy costs of creating batteries etc, and it will be a complicated equation. E.g. petrol contains a lot of joules of energy per litre, which is why it is so popular. But it is used in so inefficiently that a petrol vehicle takes about 10 times the amount of energy (joules) to cover the same distance as an electric vehicle.

[unbeliever]

Actually with electric vehicles we're finding that the batteries are lasting far far better than ever anticipated. We now have lithium ion batteries that are good for 300,000 miles before their capacity is down to 80% of the original capacity. So they will outlast the rest of the vehicle.

 

At that time, they are still quite usable and can have a second life as home energy storage or grid energy storage.

 

At end of life, the lithium can be recovered.

 

You'll have to do your own research on energy costs of creating batteries etc, and it will be a complicated equation. E.g. petrol contains a lot of joules of energy per litre, which is why it is so popular. But it is used in so inefficiently that a petrol vehicle takes about 10 times the amount of energy (joules) to cover the same distance as an electric vehicle.

 

 

None of this addresses the points that Obelix and I have made.

Battery wear is a massive cost with any kind of intermittent energy supply. It'll be 20 years at least before they're affordable on a national scale.

Grass based energy would certainly use more energy than it produces as sugar can barely break even in that regard.

It's all quite mad.

[Obelix]

You'll have to do your own research on energy costs of creating batteries etc, and it will be a complicated equation..

 

so if you haven't done it - why should we place any weight on your assertion that batteries can be used this way?

[Flexo]

so if you haven't done it - why should we place any weight on your assertion that batteries can be used this way?

 

It's available already, and costs will continue to follow a downwards curve. Tesla are the leader - perhaps unsurprising given the size of the Giga Factory.

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerpack

 

So it all comes together nicely over time and we get a nice glimpse of how we will be driving and storing energy in coming years and decades.

[unbeliever]

It's here already. Tesla are the leader - perhaps unsurprising given the size of the Giga Factory.

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerpack

 

So it all comes together nicely over time and we get a nice glimpse of how we will be driving and storing energy in coming years and decades.

 

So based on these batteries, which are cutting edge and subject to very serious barriers for the mass-scale production you'd need, how much would it cost to store a day's worth of electricity?

[Obelix]

It's available already, and costs will continue to follow a downwards curve. Tesla are the leader - perhaps unsurprising given the size of the Giga Factory.

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerpack

 

So it all comes together nicely over time and we get a nice glimpse of how we will be driving and storing energy in coming years and decades.

 

See the costs argument already made...

 

In the meantime, we can use what we have which is either rather dirty coal, dirtier oil or gas whilst we do move to a lower carbon, nuclear, solar and other storage mix.

 

As such, we need the gas and homegrown is always better for the economy than imports.

[Flexo]

See the costs argument already made...

 

What's that? The total cost of ownership of an electric vehicle is now below that of a combustion engine vehicle and we get the battery storage and then the reconditioned batteries pretty much as benefit on the side.

 

The costs are going ever downwards; the capacities upwards. Tesla alone are doubling worldwide battery production and knocking 30% off the cost.

 

As such, we need the gas and homegrown is always better for the economy than imports.

 

Yes, the green gas mills are about growing the gas. If it's cost effective then the wholesale buyers will buy it. If it's a crap idea, they won't.

 

As time goes on, the demand for gas is predicted to fall, and our solar panels and so on will take over.