Fracking in Sheffield?

[unbeliever]

Yeah, back to my point about the legacy manufacturers! As it happens, we don't need to lease the batteries because they last so long.

 

Tesla Motors do an 8-year unlimited mile warranty on theirs. "What happens if it dies after that?"... I don't know, but would think it compares well with a combustion engine that needs replacing.

 

How much does it cost?

You're very light on facts here. Just declarations.

I've given you the numbers for the most popular electric car and compared it with a bog standard combustion.

If you have numbers for a cheaper (to run) electric car, please state them.

[Flexo]

How much does it cost?

 

The base model 3 is expected to be around $30k with approx 40 to 50kWh battery. It is aimed at the same market segment as BMW M3.

 

Pricing for current models is available on Tesla Motor's website or their dealerships, but the model S is for the luxury market and priced accordingly.

[Guest]

 

Let's take the bleeding edge kit, the Tesla powerwall.

 

Come on, don't start swearing.

[unbeliever]

The base model 3 is expected to be around $30k with approx 40 to 50kWh battery. It is aimed at the same market segment as BMW M3.

 

Pricing for current models is available on Tesla Motor's website or their dealerships, but the model S is for the luxury market and priced accordingly.

 

So about £30k inc VAT compared to £12k for for the 208.

Not available for at least a year.

Range of 200 miles (that's a bit rubbish compared to the Zoe). Battery warranty of 8 years or 100k miles (whichever comes first).

Hopefully after 8 years the technology will have advanced such that the cost of replacing the batteries is not excessive. Hopefully.

 

As I keep saying, It's getting closer, but unless you're the sort of person who pays £30k for a small car it's extremely expensive.

Now if you do 100k miles in it and you save about 5p/mile in fuel, then you might save £5k in fuel. Might just be enough to pay for the replacement batteries.

Edited March 24, 2017 by unbeliever

[Flexo]

FWIW, A Renault Zoe has a quoted range of 124 to 186 miles on its 22kWh battery. Purchase cost £22,800 including batteries. Over that time it will save 85% on fuel costs and needs little in the way of trips to the garage so it can save around £2000 per year in running costs.

 

We are finding that batteries are not degrading much. When Top Gear reviewed the Nissan Leaf they took the mick about it's expected 3 year battery life. The person who bought that very Nissan leaf has now had it for 3 years and it is at 98% capacity still.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2017 at 18:13 ----------

 

Well it seems that Stannington is now in the firing line with ineos looking to do seismic testing. If you'd like to keep up with news on this there's a new Facebook group "Stannington Against Fracking".

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/586891208186138/

 

Thanks for the info! I had a look at that Facebook page and didn't see what is actually proposed for Stannington at this time. Did I miss it?

[unbeliever]

FWIW, A Renault Zoe has a quoted range of 124 to 186 miles on its 22kWh battery. Purchase cost £22,800 including batteries. Over that time it will save 85% on fuel costs and needs little in the way of trips to the garage so it can save around £2000 per year in running costs.

 

We are finding that batteries are not degrading much. When Top Gear reviewed the Nissan Leaf they took the mick about it's expected 3 year battery life. The person who bought that very Nissan leaf has now had it for 3 years and it is at 98% capacity still.

 

 

Depends whether you fast-charge it.

 

Anyway, there's no way you can get the economics of the Zoe anywhere close to the Peugeot 208. It's not even close. Even with subsidy for the Zoe and with massive taxes on the fuel for the 208, it's still way cheaper to get the 208.

And the Zoe batteries don't have a 8 year warranty, so you best cross your fingers that the batteries do last more than 3-5 years. If not you're out at least £5k for new batteries.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2017 at 18:19 ----------

 

You said that the cost of electric cars was lower than regular cars. So far all the quoted numbers show that to be a massive heap of dingos' kidneys. Can you back up your original claim, or is it just something you made up and hoped we wouldn't check?

Edited March 24, 2017 by unbeliever

[Flexo]

It's fairly straightforward! A £30k Tesla Model 3 might be say £10k dearer than a comparable petrol vehicle but can save £2000+ per year in reduced fuel costs, reduced need for maintenance and lower vehicle excise duty, depending on mileage. Ever taken a diesel Volkwsagen Audi Group engine for repair?

 

Fast charging is for occasional long journeys - most EV owners charge at home.

 

There are various projects in progress to make sure EVs can charge intelligently from the grid and even return power to it.

 

Batteries can get a second life as grid storage before being remanufactured.

 

It's expected that the use of gas will decline over time but we are still using lots of it now.

 

Ecotricity have one "green gas mill" in the build phase and two in planning. These convert grass into methane and this offers another supply of methane which can of course reduce the need for fracking.

[unbeliever]

It's fairly straightforward! A £30k Tesla Model 3 might be say £10k dearer than a comparable petrol vehicle but would save £2000+ per year in reduced fuel costs, reduced need for maintenance and lower vehicle excise duty.

 

Fast charging is for occasional long journeys - most EV owners charge at home.

 

There are various projects in progress to make sure EVs can charge intelligently from the grid and even return power to it.

 

Batteries can get a second life as grid storage before being remanufactured.

 

It's expected that the use of gas will decline over time but we are still using lots of it now.

 

Ecotricity have one "green gas mill" in the build phase and two in planning. These convert grass into methane and this offers another supply of methane which can of course reduce the need for fracking.

 

 

So they're only comparable with the high end petrols. That's not quite what you said. It's not useful to me as I've never paid more than £6k for a car. Have you?

I'm not convinced that the maintenance costs are lower, can you back that up?

Also, you'll have a job to save more than about £1k/year on fuel at a rate of a few pence per mile.

 

How many cycles do you imagine you will get on grid storage for the batteries?

What's the total cost per kWh for your grass nonsense?

 

Once again, I do not say that battery cars are far off competitiveness, only that they're not quite there yet. Even your example of a Tesla, which is certainly a step forward, is not available for over a year and still looks substantially more expensive.

I do say that batteries will remain prohibitively expensive for grid buffering for a long time to come.

 

I also say that generating electricity from grass is insane.

Edited March 24, 2017 by unbeliever

[Flexo]

Ecotricity's Green Gas Mills are in good company. There are presently over 250 anerobic digesters installed in the UK, totalling over 200MW output capacity.

 

They digest all manner of waste organic materials, from food waste and farm waste, through brewery waste and down to slurry and sewerage.

 

Most are CHP (combined heat and power) that heat nearby buildings and generate electricity.

 

A small proportion of them provide "gas to grid". Here we need to get a particular purity of methane so have to carefully regulate what's chucked in for digestion. Ecotricity are not alone in their choice of grass.

 

Other providers of gas-to-grid include Future Biogas, Green Lane, FLI Energy and Agraferm.

 

Green Lane are based on Meadowhall Road in Sheffield and have grown through mergers to become the world's largest biogas installer and upgrader. I wonder if they would get the contract for the Green Gas Mill if we could tempt Ecotricity up here? Built by a local firm and fuelled by local farms! This sounds like a nicer proposition than fracking which gets people so worked up.

[unbeliever]

Ecotricity's Green Gas Mills are in good company. There are presently over 250 anerobic digesters installed in the UK, totalling over 200MW output capacity.

 

They digest all manner of waste organic materials, from food waste and farm waste, through brewery waste and down to slurry and sewerage.

 

Most are CHP (combined heat and power) that heat nearby buildings and generate electricity.

 

A small proportion of them provide "gas to grid". Here we need to get a particular purity of methane so have to carefully regulate what's chucked in for digestion. Ecotricity are not alone in their choice of grass.

 

Other providers of gas-to-grid include Future Biogas, Green Lane, FLI Energy and Agraferm.

 

Green Lane are based on Meadowhall Road in Sheffield and have grown through mergers to become the world's largest biogas installer and upgrader. I wonder if they would get the contract for the Green Gas Mill if we could tempt Ecotricity up here? Built by a local firm and fuelled by local farms! This sounds like a nicer proposition than fracking which gets people so worked up.

 

 

So less than 1 MW per "digester".

I don't have a problem with disposing of waste in the productive way. You were talking about harvesting grass.

How much do they cost to build and run?

 

What's the total cost per kWh for your grass nonsense?

Edited March 24, 2017 by unbeliever