Fracking in Sheffield?

[Obelix]

The readings are in both of the articles I posted above. Move to Japan if you think it's safe there.

 

Fairewinds is not anti-nuclear. It's pro-safe nuclear

 

The effects of ionising radiation are known. It can be lethal. What is not known is how much has been released, where it all is, where the hotspots are etc...

 

Fukushima is still leaking. There is no containment. It is still in crisis. Groundwater is contaminated.

 

Are you arguing that a coal fire is more radioactive than the products released from a nuclear reactor core meltdown?

 

No, I'm saying that the ash from a coal fire is more radioactive than this mud that you are on about. That's why I asked for details of these "high" concentrations that you are wittering on about and have so far failed to provide. I'm also still waiting for any evidence that Fukushima and Chernobyl are going to kill millions, which you've failed to provide.

 

FYI - I've not been round Fukushima but I've spent a considerable time inside tha zone of alienation around Pripyat and at Duga 3 - when it comes to radiation physics I'm confident that I know what i'm doing.

[I1L2T3]

No, I'm saying that the ash from a coal fire is more radioactive than this mud that you are on about. That's why I asked for details of these "high" concentrations that you are wittering on about and have so far failed to provide. I'm also still waiting for any evidence that Fukushima and Chernobyl are going to kill millions, which you've failed to provide.

 

FYI - I've not been round Fukushima but I've spent a considerable time inside tha zone of alienation around Pripyat and at Duga 3 - when it comes to radiation physics I'm confident that I know what i'm doing.

 

The mud contains concentrations of caesium that are enough to prevent human consumption of fish caught in the lake - read the article.

 

In the other article read the bit about radioactivity 1,000 times normal background level in Shirikawa, 45 miles upwind of Fukushima.

 

If you believe that is normal then unfortunately safety limits would seem to contradict you.

 

As for the people that have died from Chernobyl and will die from Fukushima the estimates vary. Some estimates from Chernobyl alone are 1 million deaths. Greenpeace estimate 200,000 deaths from Chernobyl already.

 

The Japanese government has estimated 1,000 deaths because of Fukushima. Fairewinds estimate 1,000 times that number. Others estimate up to a million. There are lots of varying opinions and estimates on the net - you can easily go and take a look.

 

Are you a nuclear engineer? I thought you made statues?

[Obelix]

So basically you have cherry picked the figures you like from anti nuclear pressure groups. The only one that has a modicum of trust about it predicts a thousand.

 

The caesium levels in the fish are only stopping them being eaten because the levels were lowered from 500 to 100, and are now ten times lower than the EU figures for example. Does that mean that all the EU fish are dangerous hmm?

 

What about bananas? They have enough radioactivity to blow well past the EU fish limit, and utterly annihalate the 100Bq/Kg japanese limit. Should all bananas be banned?

 

I'm a scientist. That means I look at the science, and understand and comprehend whats going on, rather that rely on soundbites and knee jerk reactions. You'd do well to follow that advice.

[I1L2T3]

So basically you have cherry picked the figures you like from anti nuclear pressure groups. The only one that has a modicum of trust about it predicts a thousand.

 

The caesium levels in the fish are only stopping them being eaten because the levels were lowered from 500 to 100, and are now ten times lower than the EU figures for example. Does that mean that all the EU fish are dangerous hmm?

 

What about bananas? They have enough radioactivity to blow well past the EU fish limit, and utterly annihalate the 100Bq/Kg japanese limit. Should all bananas be banned?

 

I'm a scientist. That means I look at the science, and understand and comprehend whats going on, rather that rely on soundbites and knee jerk reactions. You'd do well to follow that advice.

 

I'm not cherry picking anything. I've stated a range of possible estimates from the Japanese government one of 1,000 excess cancers (which blows a hole in your assertions about no deaths) to much more extreme estimates. The more extreme ends of the scale are not impossible.

 

The caesium in the lake (134, 137) is not naturally occurring. It's a fission product. The half-life for 137 is 30 years. There you have it - as it stands an irradiated lake that humans can't consume fish from for decades and that is before more fission products are washed down watercourses and into it.

 

If you were a scientist you would understand that ingestion of caesium 137 poses a significant long-term health risk. You would also not be taking at face value what governments are saying about this, unless you were gullible.

[Obelix]

Oh dear...

 

Firstly the figures for the lake have risen, and are now falling, entirely as a result of the Cs134 decaying. Since it's a closed lake you have to appreciate that it will also have captured Cs from 50+ years of atmospheric testing as well. The figures for the mud are less than that of coal ash commonly thrown on gardens to control soil acidity and paths to provide traction, so why the sudden "panic" about this but not about coal fire grates in houses? Could it be that these radiation levels are not in actuality harmful?

 

What's the radiation of a banana? Go look it up and then you can understand why these fish are not dangerous.

[I1L2T3]

Oh dear...

 

Firstly the figures for the lake have risen, and are now falling, entirely as a result of the Cs134 decaying. Since it's a closed lake you have to appreciate that it will also have captured Cs from 50+ years of atmospheric testing as well. The figures for the mud are less than that of coal ash commonly thrown on gardens to control soil acidity and paths to provide traction, so why the sudden "panic" about this but not about coal fire grates in houses? Could it be that these radiation levels are not in actuality harmful?

 

What's the radiation of a banana? Go look it up and then you can understand why these fish are not dangerous.

 

Yes there was some because of nuclear testing, some in the ocean too. But tiny amounts.

 

Caesium 137 from a coal fire?

 

You know that the human body eliminates potassium all the time don't you?

 

Oh dear indeed.

 

Stick to the statues

[woolyhead]

Because it's stupid. And it has a poor track record.

Not Fukishama but France, where they generate about 80% of their national electricity that way. Why is that "stupid" as you claim?

[Obelix]

Yes there was some because of nuclear testing, some in the ocean too. But tiny amounts.

 

Caesium 137 from a coal fire?

 

Really? You have seen the figures hmm? What are they then for say, the west coast of the UK, for the aleutian islands, and Kamchatka for example?

 

Where do you think Cs comes from? Start with the likely sources, and work out the generation rates and you have your answer.

 

You know that the human body eliminates potassium all the time don't you?

 

If you eliminated all the potassium you would be dead, it's essential for nerve conduction and channel gating in cell membranes.. you are not going to escape from having potassium in your body....

 

Want to upset the US border guards? Drive a lorry load of bananas in unannounced - the gamma detectors go mental when you do...

 

Oh dear indeed. As cyclone said it's abundantly clear you know nothing about this and are just parroting whatever tripe you are reading, with no intent to research the subject, and no means or ability to apply critical thinking. It's therefore pointless to discuss further with you.

 

Not Fukishama but France, where they generate about 80% of their national electricity that way. Why is that "stupid" as you claim?

 

Because he has no understanding of it, and so is unable to judge it's safety.

 

 

Stick to the statues

 

Translation: I've lost the argument and know it, so I'll resort to abuse to cover that up...

Edited August 4, 2013 by Obelix

[I1L2T3]

Really? You have seen the figures hmm? What are they then for say, the west coast of the UK, for the aleutian islands, and Kamchatka for example?

 

Where do you think Cs comes from? Start with the likely sources, and work out the generation rates and you have your answer.

 

You know that the human body eliminates potassium all the time don't you?

 

If you eliminated all the potassium you would be dead, it's essential for nerve conduction and channel gating in cell membranes.. you are not going to escape from having potassium in your body....

 

Want to upset the US border guards? Drive a lorry load of bananas in unannounced - the gamma detectors go mental when you do...

 

Oh dear indeed. As cyclone said it's abundantly clear you know nothing about this and are just parroting whatever tripe you are reading, with no intent to research the subject, and no means or ability to apply critical thinking. It's therefore pointless to discuss further with you.

 

 

 

Because he has no understanding of it, and so is unable to judge it's safety.

 

 

 

Translation: I've lost the argument and know it, so I'll resort to abuse to cover that up...

 

I don't think you've made a cogent argument. Looks to me like you're just running off a script about safety of reactors in normal operation.

 

You're talking about coal fires and trucks of bananas and comparing them to widespread contamination of a country and the ocean with long-lived, health-damaging fission products after multiple reactor fires and meltdowns in the most serious of disasters.

 

You have said people won't die. You are wrong.

 

You have argued that the plant operators were caught out by events outside design parameters. Wrong again.

 

As I said the Fukushima situation is ongoing. People will die (despite what you say) and the Japanese government recognises that. It's a question of how many.

 

I'm here to discuss it as much as you want.

[Obelix]

 

You have said people won't die.

 

You have argued that the plant operators were caught out by events outside design parameters. Wrong again.

 

I never said any of those as well you know, and have no interest in discussing this with someone prepared to lie with the mendacity that you displaying.