Fracking in Sheffield?

[Anna B]

People had these things before the advent of cheap fossil fuels and the industrial revolution, technology and fossil fuels just allowed us to increase the size of the population, and now there are far more poor people than the amount of people that were even alive before the advent of cheap fossil fuels and industrial revaluation.

 

Really, you think?

 

I'm old enough to remember a time when they were not even available to people in this country, never mind the third world, and I assure you I don't predate fossil fuel.

 

Prior to the second world war families were large, money was scarce, and there was no welfare state taking care of people's health. Slum housing was commonplace until Hitler did a bit of demolition work. Proper sanitation, education for all, and public transport for the masses were Victorian acheivements made possible by the wealth from the industrial revolution.

 

In fact our whole recognisably modern way of life came about because of the agrarian and industrial revolutions. Before that all but the wealthiest lived very mean, uncomfortable, hard lives and generally died in their early forties, poviding, that is, they managed to survive childhood.

[daneha]

Really, you think?

 

I'm old enough to remember a time when they were not even available to people in this country, never mind the third world, and I assure you I don't predate fossil fuel.

 

Prior to the second world war families were large, money was scarce, and there was no welfare state taking care of people's health. Slum housing was commonplace until Hitler did a bit of demolition work. Proper sanitation, education for all, and public transport for the masses were Victorian acheivements made possible by the wealth from the industrial revolution.

 

In fact our whole recognisably modern way of life came about because of the agrarian and industrial revolutions. Before that all but the wealthiest lived very mean, uncomfortable, hard lives and generally died in their early forties, poviding, that is, they managed to survive childhood.

 

The inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age; Humans were not dying en masse at the age of 40 at any time in our past. The maximum human lifespan has remained constant for thousands of years. The idea that our ancestors routinely died young has no basis in scientific fact. For every child that died in infancy, another person might have lived to be 70.

 

When Socrates died at the age of 70 around 399 B.C., he did not die of old age but instead by execution. It is ironic that ancient Greeks lived into their 70s and older, while more than 2,000 years later modern humans aren't living much longer.

[Anna B]

The inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age; Humans were not dying en masse at the age of 40 at any time in our past. The maximum human lifespan has remained constant for thousands of years. The idea that our ancestors routinely died young has no basis in scientific fact. For every child that died in infancy, another person might have lived to be 70.

 

When Socrates died at the age of 70 around 399 B.C., he did not die of old age but instead by execution. It is ironic that ancient Greeks lived into their 70s and older, while more than 2,000 years later modern humans aren't living much longer.

 

The rich have always lived longer thanks to good nutrition and better health. So yes a few have always lived into their eighties. But to say that infant mortality is equalled by the long lived is a distortion.

 

Since reliable records began in the late 1700's, the average life expectancy for the working class has been late thirties, early forties, rising to 66 in the 1930's

 

The welfare state and healthcare for all is responsible for pushing that up to 80ish. Don't you think that it is only fair that the working class should now be able to expect a similar lifespan to the rich (though it still isn't actually equal.)

 

You seem to have a rosy image of pre industrial life, but in reality it was hard, dirty, disease ridden and short. We have come a long way thanks to ever improving technology. Not that it's been without cost, but we have learned many lessons from our mistakes.

 

It is a difficult and delicate balance between progress and payment. It's right that it should be debated and properly discussed, but to stand in the way of all future development is just as wrong as an unfettered free-for-all.

[daneha]

The rich have always lived longer thanks to good nutrition and better health. So yes a few have always lived into their eighties. But to say that infant mortality is equalled by the long lived is a distortion.

 

Since reliable records began in the late 1700's, the average life expectancy for the working class has been late thirties, early forties, rising to 66 in the 1930's

 

The welfare state and healthcare for all is responsible for pushing that up to 80ish. Don't you think that it is only fair that the working class should now be able to expect a similar lifespan to the rich (though it still isn't actually equal.)

 

You seem to have a rosy image of pre industrial life, but in reality it was hard, dirty, disease ridden and short. We have come a long way thanks to ever improving technology. Not that it's been without cost, but we have learned many lessons from our mistakes.

 

It is a difficult and delicate balance between progress and payment. It's right that it should be debated and properly discussed, but to stand in the way of all future development is just as wrong as an unfettered free-for-all.

 

Which doesn't mean that working class people only lived to late thirties, early forties.

Child mortality distorts the average life expectancy figures, to get an average life expectancy of 40 you need someone to live to 80 for every baby that dies at birth and lots of babies died before they got to one, the average life expectancy figures increased because more babies lived into adulthood and not because we lived to an older age.

[Anna B]

Which doesn't mean that working class people only lived to late thirties, early forties.

Child mortality distorts the average life expectancy figures, to get an average life expectancy of 40 you need someone to live to 80 for every baby that dies at birth and lots of babies died before they got to one, the average life expectancy figures increased because more babies lived into adulthood and not because we lived to an older age.

 

Whatever....

 

It's not really the point is it?

 

The point is that, on balance, technology has given us a better way of life.

[Rupert_Baehr]

The rich have always lived longer thanks to good nutrition and better health. So yes a few have always lived into their eighties. But to say that infant mortality is equalled by the long lived is a distortion.

 

Since reliable records began in the late 1700's, the average life expectancy for the working class has been late thirties, early forties, rising to 66 in the 1930's

 

The welfare state and healthcare for all is responsible for pushing that up to 80ish. Don't you think that it is only fair that the working class should now be able to expect a similar lifespan to the rich (though it still isn't actually equal.)

 

You seem to have a rosy image of pre industrial life, but in reality it was hard, dirty, disease ridden and short. We have come a long way thanks to ever improving technology. Not that it's been without cost, but we have learned many lessons from our mistakes.

 

It is a difficult and delicate balance between progress and payment. It's right that it should be debated and properly discussed, but to stand in the way of all future development is just as wrong as an unfettered free-for-all.

 

I'm not so sure! If you have really good health care, that's likely to extend your lifespan and conversely, if you starve to death as an infant, then your lifespan will be rather short.

 

Nobody in Britain today is forced to live on a diet of deep-fried Mars Bars, excessive amounts of fatty food or any other unhealthy diet. If they do so, that's through choice. 'Poor nutrition' is largely a matter of choice.

 

Fresh vegetables cost rather less than McFattyburgers anywhere in the country.

 

If people don't know how to cook vegetables, that's not the fault of the government. The government was not their Mum & Dad and anyway, the government (read 'the taxpayer') provided them with 11 years of free schooling and there are books on cooking readily available in every library and there is no shortage of information on the Internet.

 

The working class can have exactly the same life expectancy as the rich. The rich, too, have to do exercise to get (and stay) fit. (You can't pay somebody else to do the exercise for you. )

 

I suspect that there is (or may be) something else which tends to promote a long lifespan. It's not 'inherited wealth'.

 

I live (for 7 months of the year) in a retirement community. Some of the people there are a bit older than Methuselah! They are, predominantly, people who have been 'achievers' throughout their lives.

 

Ordinarily, I go to a reunion in Lincoln during the first weekend of September. I see people I used to work with, people who came after me and people who worked there long before I was born. - Some of them are (just about) old enough to be my grandfather!

 

Few of them were born rich - though some became wealthy (through their own efforts) in later life.

 

Why do they live for so long? What is the secret to their longevity?

 

Could it be that when they got old (and maybe got sick, too) they wouldn't give up?

 

My father started having strokes when he was in his early 50s. He was tough and he survived them. Then he moved on to heart attacks (had a few of those, too.) - But he gave up on life and sat in a chair. He lived until he was 70. - He'd given up by then.

 

I suspect (and I hope I'm right) that 'willpower' (Or rather "I'm not bloody giving up yet" power) is what keeps people alive.

 

If you went through life with the attitude: "I'm going to succeed' (not so far removed from "I'm not bloody giving up yet!") then perhaps you will live longer than many others?

 

If that's so, then longevity is not so much a matter of 'being born into a wealthy family' as being a matter of personal decisions.

[Anna B]

So, back on track...

 

Should we go for fracking, or stop it?

[megalithic]

Stop it.

Those supporting it are mentalists. Nothing more.

[ivanava]

So, back on track...

 

Should we go for fracking, or stop it?

 

We should stop it and concentrate on renewables.

[Jeffrey Shaw]

So, back on track...

 

Should we go for fracking, or stop it?

 

Stop it.

Contrary view: go for it, asap. Keep them lights on.