Great Britain?

[Michael_W]

Are any of the points which I made in that post incorrect or unfair?

 

I am Anglo-Irish, not French, Spanish, Portuguese or Dutch. Their transgressions are down to them. The faults concerning my country are my concern.

You have heard the expression that 'two wrongs don't make a right'?

 

Well in this case, four wrongs (and many more) do not make a right.

 

In my opinion ALL Empires were wrong. They were all based on theft, murder & greed.

 

However, it is history isn't it? No one these days needs to feel guilty about it we didn't do it.

However, we don't need to feel proud of it either. It was wrong, & we should accept & acknowledge that fact, without tying ourselves in knots trying to defend the indefensible.

 

The recent trait of apologizing for events that happened in history is, in my opinion a bit ridiculous.

 

The two exceptions to that were David Cameron's apology for 'Bloody Sunday' & the Queens speech in Dublin castle with regard to past history between the two country's.

 

Those two speeches made me proud of my fathers country, class.

 

This country has had an enormous impact on the history of the world, & much of it has been positive & a matter for pride, however to deny that it has also been responsible for atrocities & has done many things which are shameful is simply ignoring the facts.

 

The op posted this :

 

just interested in peoples different opinions so the question is what will put the 'great' back into great britain?

 

Your input into the thread, which had already gone off at a tangent, was one of highlighting much of what was wrong with our history ..... as judged a great many years after the events of course

I don't deny or ignore any facts, shamefully or otherwise, but will defend 'my' country against your claims of it's disrepute, in whatever way I see fit ..... it's my way of trying to balance those negatives

Your tone in the quoted post is of course more balanced than those you posted earlier in the thread.

In your opinion ALL empires were wrong ..... OK mjw here is my point, we all have opinions, but our opinions won't change history, we are where we are today because we have evolved and learnt from experience and of course mistakes, including those things you don't like about English / British history.

 

One thing we do agree on is that of apologising for things that happened in history being ridiculous ..... we were not there, and much perspective has been lost about history in general ( take note Bonzo77 ) !

[Harleyman]

The Empire provided Britain with an endless supply of cheap raw materials, oil and other resources.

Once these colonies became independent and all this stuff had to be paid for at global trade prices then it was a whole different story

[Hillpig]

The Empire provided Britain with an endless supply of cheap raw materials, oil and other resources.

Once these colonies became independent and all this stuff had to be paid for at global trade prices then it was a whole different story

 

It was actually pretty well managed, to go from the worlds largest empire, albeit based on a very small island off the European mainland, to where we are today, no empire but the worlds 6th/7th largest economy, a country where others aspire to live, a wonderful health service, a beacon of democracy, the most integrated society in the world Is no mean achievement.

 

As the American decline continues I wonder how historians will compare the two superpowers in a couple of hundred years.

[mjw47]

My original post was merely to point why the area was referred to as Great, which was for geographic reasons.

My second post at 33 was in response to a post from Hillpig, he posted a load of jingoistic nonsense where he tried to make out that this country was some kind of 'Knight in shining armour'.

According to his version of history, we traveled the world spilling blood & spending treasure in order to right wrongs & see goodness triumph wherever we appeared. Presumably we were greatly helped in our combat success by the blinding light emitted by our halos.

Now that sort of nonsense can not be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

No Empire that ever existed was ever altruistic by nature, the whole point of an Empire is to gain wealth, by force if necessary.

As to going off at a tangent, not so sure it was actually. All country's which have had Empires tend to suffer a downturn once the Empire has declined.

This is natural if you think about it, at the height of their power things came relatively easy. Take stuff by force, exploit slave labour, 'lean' on other smaller country's to gain advantages.

Once the power has gone however, they suddenly find things are very different. Making your way in competition with other country's, without being able to send a gunboat as a negotiating tool must be a shock to the system.

 

I would suggest that one of the first things which would help the adjustment is to come to terms with, & accept, the reality of the situation.

 

One country which has done this remarkably well is Germany. They have faced up to their country's past history, accepted it, resolved that it shall never happen again & then got on with the job of rebuilding a successful economy & society.

There are many similarities between Germany & England. They are both Germanic races for starters - in racial terms cousins - & both have made huge positive contributions to western civilization. Also of course, both have committed crimes against humanity in the course of their respective history's.

 

The difference being that the Germans have accepted their culpability & are making what appears to be a successful effort to move on.

We on the other hand - or at least some of us - appear to wish to remain in denial & will only accept nice things being said about us. We also - or at least some of us - appear to think that we remain a World power & have every right to interfere in other country's internal affairs when it is blindingly obvious we can no longer afford that type of foreign policy.

 

One final point, it is not your country it is ours, & my opinions are as relevant as yours, in particular when they are backed up by the facts.

[Michael_W]

The Empire provided Britain with an endless supply of cheap raw materials, oil and other resources.

Once these colonies became independent and all this stuff had to be paid for at global trade prices then it was a whole different story

 

Globalisation would have happened with or without the British empire, the British just happened to be the stronger, more successful of the dominant nations back then, trading on their terms by fair means or foul, others arguably continue to do so even to this day !

 

---------- Post added 10-08-2013 at 20:45 ----------

 

My original post was merely to point why the area was referred to as Great, which was for geographic reasons.

My second post at 33 was in response to a post from Hillpig, he posted a load of jingoistic nonsense where he tried to make out that this country was some kind of 'Knight in shining armour'.

According to his version of history, we traveled the world spilling blood & spending treasure in order to right wrongs & see goodness triumph wherever we appeared. Presumably we were greatly helped in our combat success by the blinding light emitted by our halos.

Now that sort of nonsense can not be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

No Empire that ever existed was ever altruistic by nature, the whole point of an Empire is to gain wealth, by force if necessary.

As to going off at a tangent, not so sure it was actually. All country's which have had Empires tend to suffer a downturn once the Empire has declined.

This is natural if you think about it, at the height of their power things came relatively easy. Take stuff by force, exploit slave labour, 'lean' on other smaller country's to gain advantages.

Once the power has gone however, they suddenly find things are very different. Making your way in competition with other country's, without being able to send a gunboat as a negotiating tool must be a shock to the system.

 

I would suggest that one of the first things which would help the adjustment is to come to terms with, & accept, the reality of the situation.

 

One country which has done this remarkably well is Germany. They have faced up to their country's past history, accepted it, resolved that it shall never happen again & then got on with the job of rebuilding a successful economy & society.

There are many similarities between Germany & England. They are both Germanic races for starters - in racial terms cousins - & both have made huge positive contributions to western civilization. Also of course, both have committed crimes against humanity in the course of their respective history's.

 

The difference being that the Germans have accepted their culpability & are making what appears to be a successful effort to move on.

We on the other hand - or at least some of us - appear to wish to remain in denial & will only accept nice things being said about us. We also - or at least some of us - appear to think that we remain a World power & have every right to interfere in other country's internal affairs when it is blindingly obvious we can no longer afford that type of foreign policy.

 

One final point, it is not your country it is ours, & my opinions are as relevant as yours, in particular when they are backed up by the facts.

 

Your telling me nothing I don't know mjw, however you keep missing my point in your vanity to get the last word in !

Oh and by the way, in a previous thread you posted this:

Those two speeches made me proud of my fathers country, class.

Why do you think I put apostrophes round the word 'my' (country) ...... too subtle for you eh

 

The Germans have had to accept their culpability, they were defeated in the most recent World War and also received help rebuilding, I admire the Germans too by the way, they don't have those British style hang ups for starters !

[mjw47]

Globalisation would have happened with or without the British empire, the British just happened to be the stronger, more successful of the dominant nations back then, trading on their terms by fair means or foul, others arguably continue to do so even to this day !

 

---------- Post added 10-08-2013 at 20:45 ----------

 

 

Your telling me nothing I don't know mjw, however you keep missing my point in your vanity to get the last word in !

Oh and by the way, in a previous thread you posted this:

Those two speeches made me proud of my fathers country, class.

Why do you think I put apostrophes round the word 'my' (country) ...... too subtle for you eh

 

It is nothing to do with 'vanity' your use of words can be strange at times. It is the wish to make a point to a somewhat obtuse -deliberately or not -person.

As I have pointed out previously, I had an English father & an Irish mother. This fact means that I have dual-nationality as a birthright.

 

Have you ever heard of Jus Sanguinis? Or Jus Soli for that matter? Both are Latin, the first means 'right of blood' the second means 'right of the soil'.

 

Those terms are used when deciding a persons right to citizenship.

 

My right to Irish citizenship is guaranteed by Jus Sanguinis my right to British by both.

 

England & Ireland are both my country's, should I wish to, I can hold the passport of both country's simultaneously, a friend of mine does just that, but I cannot see the point.

 

Now, I regularly use the expression 'my fathers country' or alternatively 'my mothers country'. I regard it as a somewhat affectionate way of referring to them, not that I expect you to understand.

 

Do not try to read meanings which exist only in your head into other peoples expressions.

[Michael_W]

It is nothing to do with 'vanity' your use of words can be strange at times. It is the wish to make a point to a somewhat obtuse -deliberately or not -person.

As I have pointed out previously, I had an English father & an Irish mother. This fact means that I have dual-nationality as a birthright.

 

Have you ever heard of Jus Sanguinis? Or Jus Soli for that matter? Both are Latin, the first means 'right of blood' the second means 'right of the soil'.

 

Those terms are used when deciding a persons right to citizenship.

 

My right to Irish citizenship is guaranteed by Jus Sanguinis my right to British by both.

 

England & Ireland are both my country's, should I wish to, I can hold the passport of both country's simultaneously, a friend of mine does just that, but I cannot see the point.

 

Now, I regularly use the expression 'my fathers country' or alternatively 'my mothers country'. I regard it as a somewhat affectionate way of referring to them, not that I expect you to understand.

 

Do not try to read meanings which exist only in your head into other peoples expressions.

 

And yet you do the same yourself

Your a strange one too fella, you keep repeating yourself ...... please allow me to repeat myself too ....... get over it, I don't care about your dual nationality or your knowledge of Latin etc .... etc .... I won't ever see eye to eye with you nor you to me, I'm happy with that

[Phanerothyme]

Apart from all that, I find the Second World War rather tedious. It is not that I am wholly uninterested in it; I have merely never understood this widespread obsession with it. It must be that nothing of great renown hath betided Britain ever since.

 

It's intensely tedious.

 

I blame TV for showing multiple channels full to the brim with badly narrativized WWII history.

[mjw47]

And yet you do the same yourself

Your a strange one too fella, you keep repeating yourself ...... please allow me to repeat myself too ....... get over it, I don't care about your dual nationality or your knowledge of Latin etc .... etc .... I won't ever see eye to eye with you nor you to me, I'm happy with that

 

So your are actually obtuse, It's not done as a bit of a wind up . Get over it? What exactly am I supposed to be getting over?

 

As to seeing eye to eye with you Brilliant! Please explain why anyone would want to see eye to eye with someone who appears to have opinions on many things, but no facts to back them up.

 

Any point which I have made on this thread has had the truth backing it up. You have failed to make an opposing viewpoint producing facts to make your case.

Had you done so that would have been interesting, & maybe I could have learned something. In a debate, if someone introduces a fact which I was previously unaware of, & it has a material effect on the point discussed, I am always prepared to take it on board & if necessary change my viewpoint.

 

Your method of debate -using the term at it's loosest - appears to be, boo hoo someone is saying nasty things about my country, I must argue with them even though what they said is true.

 

Basically, your just a bit of a whiner with nothing to add to the thread. See eye to eye That's a good one.

 

---------- Post added 10-08-2013 at 23:15 ----------

 

And as for you not being interested in my dual-nationality or Latin I didn't think you would be. You don't strike me as someone who is interested in things.

 

The reason I mentioned them was to explain why my use of the expression 'fathers country' would be understandable. Obviously however it was too subtle for you.

[Hillpig]

My original post was merely to point why the area was referred to as Great, which was for geographic reasons.

My second post at 33 was in response to a post from Hillpig, he posted a load of jingoistic nonsense where he tried to make out that this country was some kind of 'Knight in shining armour'.

According to his version of history, we traveled the world spilling blood & spending treasure in order to right wrongs & see goodness triumph wherever we appeared. Presumably we were greatly helped in our combat success by the blinding light emitted by our halos.

Now that sort of nonsense can not be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

No Empire that ever existed was ever altruistic by nature, the whole point of an Empire is to gain wealth, by force if necessary.

As to going off at a tangent, not so sure it was actually. All country's which have had Empires tend to suffer a downturn once the Empire has declined.

This is natural if you think about it, at the height of their power things came relatively easy. Take stuff by force, exploit slave labour, 'lean' on other smaller country's to gain advantages.

Once the power has gone however, they suddenly find things are very different. Making your way in competition with other country's, without being able to send a gunboat as a negotiating tool must be a shock to the system.

 

I would suggest that one of the first things which would help the adjustment is to come to terms with, & accept, the reality of the situation.

 

One country which has done this remarkably well is Germany. They have faced up to their country's past history, accepted it, resolved that it shall never happen again & then got on with the job of rebuilding a successful economy & society.

There are many similarities between Germany & England. They are both Germanic races for starters - in racial terms cousins - & both have made huge positive contributions to western civilization. Also of course, both have committed crimes against humanity in the course of their respective history's.

 

The difference being that the Germans have accepted their culpability & are making what appears to be a successful effort to move on.

We on the other hand - or at least some of us - appear to wish to remain in denial & will only accept nice things being said about us. We also - or at least some of us - appear to think that we remain a World power & have every right to interfere in other country's internal affairs when it is blindingly obvious we can no longer afford that type of foreign policy.

 

One final point, it is not your country it is ours, & my opinions are as relevant as yours, in particular when they are backed up by the facts.

 

It is disgraceful to compare this countries history with Germany, a country which has only been in existence for 150years slaughtered the Namibian tribes, started the Franco Prussian , first and second world wars slaughtering millions as it did so. Has brought nothing to civilisation apart for the BMW.

 

The only culpability regarding the end of the empire is Americas. Their profiteering at our expense, the fact that they stood back whilst we fought agsinst the enemies of civilisation, that is culpable.

 

I find it pathetic that you, a person who has benefitted from the freedoms others fought and died for should insult and belittle your own country, you should be ashamed of yourself.