Great Britain?

[mjw47]

I never said we should only speak positively about our history did I ?

I spoke about keeping our history in context, I do get sick though of the anti British sentiment that the apologists on here seem to bring up at every opportunity !

As to the whoosh and keeping up, you really should have heard it first but chose to get all frothy !

As for acknowledging past transgressions and moving on .... we have ... it's the apologists and the socialists that never stop bleating about it, we have little or no right to be proud of our country in their opinion, you only have to read their comments on here, there is plenty of them, your mate halibut and his ilk would happily post those negative views of English / British history too

 

You meet & get into conversation with two Germans.

 

The first German says to you, '' Germany is the greatest country in the world. We have produced the greatest Statesmen, Soldiers, Architects, Musicians, Scientists, Writers, Sportsmen & Philosophers the world has ever seen. Any transgressions we may have committed pale into insignificance in comparison to our Greatness.''

 

The second German says to you, ''What my comrade says holds a great deal of truth, we have indeed produced many great men & accomplished great deeds,however, it also has to be acknowledged that we have also been responsible for much pain & suffering & that cannot be dismissed as of no consequence''.

 

Now firstly, which of those two do you think comes across as the most sensible & rational?

Secondly, would you regard the second German as a traitor to his country because of his reservations?

 

 

 

 

Now, in what way - other than Musicians & Philosophers - could you not tell the same story of two Englishmen?

 

Don't let's get into an argument as to the equivalence of German atrocities as opposed to British. The point being made is that both nations have achieved great things & both have committed crimes against humanity.

 

You & your mate Hillpig appear to take the first stance whilst I & a few others take the second.

Ever heard the expression ' you can't have your cake & eat it?'. Because that's what most jingoists want, revel in the good bits & ignore the not so pleasant.

 

In a previous post you referred to me as 'bitter', an amazing conclusion to come to based purely on the fact that I like to tell it as it is.

 

This did however remind me of my post at 97. Read the last three paragraphs of that post again. You never did come back with a smart retort on that one did you? Nail on head wasn't it?

 

There's only one bitter man on this thread & it's not me .

[Harleyman]

I'm currently re-reading Churchill's account of the early part of WW2. In addiion to this I actually lived through the war. We were all concerned at the time about the non intervention of America at the start. But certain facts need to be understood. America was filled with immigrants from Europe and their descendants, a great many of them from Germany, as well as Italy. The country was still recovering from the great depression. There was little enthusiasm for sending their boys out to be killed in a war that they thought was none of their business, so while FDR realized that there was a need to get into it, Congress didn't. There was no army to talk of and they were poorly armed. However he brought lend/lease into being, sending much needed arms to Britain. All this had to be paid for by the taxpayers of America. They had a right to be repaid. Britain finally repaid in total in 2006. Loans made to Britain during the First World War were never repaid at all, and were finally written off. Some of that money could have helped the hungry unemployed during the thirties. I have answered this situation before on the forum and it seems to come up again and again. Its over and done with. They came over, many of them died at Omaha beach, and in countless B17s, and we were glad thay came.

 

That's a good post buck but completely wasted on the likes of hillpig. He's completely convinced that Britain fought practically alone in both wars.

 

I've posted on other threads the same as you described above but it's all wasted.

 

These people just look at dates and say

"Ooooh you lot didnt show up until 1917 or ooooh you lot didnt show up until 1942"

 

They seem to get the dates right but know sweet fanny adams about anything else

 

---------- Post added 11-08-2013 at 18:05 ----------

 

It is disgraceful to compare this countries history with Germany, a country which has only been in existence for 150years slaughtered the Namibian tribes, started the Franco Prussian , first and second world wars slaughtering millions as it did so. Has brought nothing to civilisation apart for the BMW.

 

The only culpability regarding the end of the empire is Americas. Their profiteering at our expense, the fact that they stood back whilst we fought agsinst the enemies of civilisation, that is culpable.

 

I find it pathetic that you, a person who has benefitted from the freedoms others fought and died for should insult and belittle your own country, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

What makes you so completely cocksure that people in India and Africa had no desire to be indepenedent?

Colonialism was on it's way out in the 1930s and after WW2 the desire for independence only increased.

 

Did Britons benefit so much from the empire? Business men, profiteers and the privileged did but what about the common man?

 

Was it any cosolation to the miner, the steelworker, the millworker or any other worker that Britain ruled half the world while he laboured 6 days a week under conditions which today would be classified as extermely unhealthy, sweated for every bob his bosses paid him and his kids sick with rickets or menangitis and living in a filthy back street two up and two down dwelling.

 

Why dont you broaden your mind a little and study social conditions in Victorian and Edwardian England when the empire was in full flower?

 

How about the other ordinary fella? The one who joined the army? Anyone who lived in those times saw a very ordinary. common sight on any city street corner. The one legged or one armed old soldier still wearing one or two items of his uniform begging for a hand out.

 

He fought for Queen, Country and Empire, gave his all and received only grudging charity in return

[Michael_W]

You meet & get into conversation with two Germans.

 

The first German says to you, '' Germany is the greatest country in the world. We have produced the greatest Statesmen, Soldiers, Architects, Musicians, Scientists, Writers, Sportsmen & Philosophers the world has ever seen. Any transgressions we may have committed pale into insignificance in comparison to our Greatness.''

 

The second German says to you, ''What my comrade says holds a great deal of truth, we have indeed produced many great men & accomplished great deeds,however, it also has to be acknowledged that we have also been responsible for much pain & suffering & that cannot be dismissed as of no consequence''.

 

Now firstly, which of those two do you think comes across as the most sensible & rational?

Secondly, would you regard the second German as a traitor to his country because of his reservations?

 

 

 

 

Now, in what way - other than Musicians & Philosophers - could you not tell the same story of two Englishmen?

 

Don't let's get into an argument as to the equivalence of German atrocities as opposed to British. The point being made is that both nations have achieved great things & both have committed crimes against humanity.

 

You & your mate Hillpig appear to take the first stance whilst I & a few others take the second.

Ever heard the expression ' you can't have your cake & eat it?'. Because that's what most jingoists want, revel in the good bits & ignore the not so pleasant.

 

In a previous post you referred to me as 'bitter', an amazing conclusion to come to based purely on the fact that I like to tell it as it is.

 

This did however remind me of my post at 97. Read the last three paragraphs of that post again. You never did come back with a smart retort on that one did you? Nail on head wasn't it?

 

There's only one bitter man on this thread & it's not me .

 

 

Nail on head .... if you say so boss !

Oh dear forget it ...... round and round we go ... it's getting very tedious now !

[buck]

That's a good post buck but completely wasted on the likes of hillpig. He's completely convinced that Britain fought practically alone in both wars.

 

I've posted on other threads the same as you described above but it's all wasted.

 

These people just look at dates and say

"Ooooh you lot didnt show up until 1917 or ooooh you lot didnt show up until 1942"

 

They seem to get the dates right but know sweet fanny adams about anything else

 

---------- Post added 11-08-2013 at 18:05 ----------

 

 

What makes you so completely cocksure that people in India and Africa had no desire to be indepenedent?

Colonialism was on it's way out in the 1930s and after WW2 the desire for independence only increased.

 

Did Britons benefit so much from the empire? Business men, profiteers and the privileged did but what about the common man?

 

Was it any cosolation to the miner, the steelworker, the millworker or any other worker that Britain ruled half the world while he laboured 6 days a week under conditions which today would be classified as extermely unhealthy, sweated for every bob his bosses paid him and his kids sick with rickets or menangitis and living in a filthy back street two up and two down dwelling.

 

Why dont you broaden your mind a little and study social conditions in Victorian and Edwardian England when the empire was in full flower?

 

How about the other ordinary fella? The one who joined the army? Anyone who lived in those times saw a very ordinary. common sight on any city street corner. The one legged or one armed old soldier still wearing one or two items of his uniform begging for a hand out.

 

He fought for Queen, Country and Empire, gave his all and received only grudging charity in return

The Americans arrived in 1917, barely trained , but full of enthusiasm, to face an enemy that was far from beaten, and it was all over within a year. Cause and effect I would say.

[mjw47]

Nail on head .... if you say so boss !

Oh dear forget it ...... round and round we go ... it's getting very tedious now !

 

So answer the question then. And whilst your at it, why don't you suggest a method by which Britain can become 'Great' again?

[Michael_W]

So answer the question then. And whilst your at it, why don't you suggest a method by which Britain can become 'Great' again?

 

Answer what question

Have you missed some of my previous posts or what ?

Tell you what boss, why don't you tell us how to make Britain Great again .... because acknowledging the past has turned into dwelling on it in some quarters, that's for sure

[mjw47]

Answer what question

Have you missed some of my previous posts or what ?

Tell you what boss, why don't you tell us how to make Britain Great again .... because acknowledging the past has turned into dwelling on it in some quarters, that's for sure

 

The questions asked in the post of mine you quoted. You know, the ones with the question marks after them.

 

As to missing posts, I've already given my suggestions. You obviously haven't been paying attention, which does explain a thing or two.

 

The nail on head, definitely, no mistake. You see this is an internet forum so the suggestion someone is showing off is frankly stupid. How can anyone show off when no one knows who anyone else is? Therefore, if you had a come back to my suggestion that you never achieved much in your working life & were bitter as a consequence, you would have given it. You didn't, on two separate occasions, although you were quick to jump straight in on

other perceived slights.

[Michael_W]

The questions asked in the post of mine you quoted. You know, the ones with the question marks after them.

 

Well you obviously don't understand English ... hence I referred you to my previous posts !

 

As to missing posts, I've already given my suggestions. You obviously haven't been paying attention, which does explain a thing or two.

 

Seems that makes two of us then frothy gob !

 

The nail on head, definitely, no mistake. You see this is an internet forum so the suggestion someone is showing off is frankly stupid. How can anyone show off when no one knows who anyone else is? Therefore, if you had a come back to my suggestion that you never achieved much in your working life & were bitter as a consequence, you would have given it. You didn't, on two separate occasions, although you were quick to jump straight in on

other perceived slights.

 

 

This is an internet forum ... you are correct ... for once !

You clearly do have a high opinion of yourself, but who the hell mentioned 'showing off', are you on the booze or just an arrogant big head

I notice you mention the word class quite a bit, though you don't like the class system, is that something that makes you so bitter ?

As for achievement in my working life old lad I have produced things by hand that are scattered across the globe ... Made In England

[mjw47]

This is an internet forum ... you are correct ... for once !

You clearly do have a high opinion of yourself, but who the hell mentioned 'showing off', are you on the booze or just an arrogant big head

I notice you mention the word class quite a bit, though you don't like the class system, is that something that makes you so bitter ?

As for achievement in my working life old lad I have produced things by hand that are scattered across the globe ... Made In England

 

Class means a different thing to me than possibly it does to you. A person of no wealth, no position & no influence, can possess class.

 

You have produced things by hand which are scattered across the globe? Well why the hell didn't you say so in the first place?

 

That Michael is something which I have nothing but respect for. My family in Sheffield have been traced back in a direct male line to 1706. They moved into Heeley in the mid 1700's & were in the cutlery trade for several generations. Several of my Grandfathers owned their own business' as cutlery manufacturers. All the money had gone by the time I arrived of course . Bloody typical.

 

Now you see how easy that was? You tell me something about yourself & I'm impressed. Notice how, unlike you I haven't questioned the truth of it? I believe you because I can see no reason why anyone should be daft enough to lie on an anonymous forum. What would be the point?

 

Incidentally, no one that I have ever met in my entire life has ever referred to me as either 'big headed' or 'arrogant'. Having said which, 'pillock' 'smart arse' & 'prat' may have made an occasional appearance but not enough to get paranoid about it. .

[Michael_W]

Class means a different thing to me than possibly it does to you. A person of no wealth, no position & no influence, can possess class.

 

You have produced things by hand which are scattered across the globe? Well why the hell didn't you say so in the first place?

 

That Michael is something which I have nothing but respect for. My family in Sheffield have been traced back in a direct male line to 1706. They moved into Heeley in the mid 1700's & were in the cutlery trade for several generations. Several of my Grandfathers owned their own business' as cutlery manufacturers. All the money had gone by the time I arrived of course . Bloody typical.

 

Now you see how easy that was? You tell me something about yourself & I'm impressed. Notice how, unlike you I haven't questioned the truth of it? I believe you because I can see no reason why anyone should be daft enough to lie on an anonymous forum. What would be the point?

 

Incidentally, no one that I have ever met in my entire life has ever referred to me as either 'big headed' or 'arrogant'. Having said which, 'pillock' 'smart arse' & 'prat' may have made an occasional appearance but not enough to get paranoid about it. .

 

Having read that I must now apologise for being rude and the name calling in some of my previous posts, if we can at least be more courteous and civil to each other on this forum, then it will be for the better .... even if we don't necessarily agree with each other