Great Britain?

[Eccentric]

That is not how Thilo Sarrazin phrased it...

[Rupert_Baehr]

That is not how Thilo Sarrazin phrased it...

 

Do you think there is a possibility that my post doesn't echo the viewpoint of Thilo Sarrazin because I happen not to be called Thilo Sarrazin?

 

Just a thought.

[Vague_Boy]

They then stabbed us in the back causing us to lose the empire.

 

How exactly did they do that?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the British Empire was absolutely fine until 1945 and then collapsed quicker than Luis Suarez after a tackle?

 

 

Ours was the greatest empire in the history of the world. Built on justice, fairness and democracy.

 

Oh please! During the height of the British Empire, even British women didn't have the right to vote. It wasn't until 1930 that women under 21 got the vote.

 

No Indian nationals, male or female, had the right to vote until 1919:

 

Indian nationals had no say in central government and even at a local level, their influence on policy and decision making was minimal.

 

In 1919, the Government of India Act was introduced. This introduced a national parliament with two houses for India. About 5 million of the wealthiest Indians were given the right to vote (a very small percentage of the total population)

 

LINK

 

Yeah, "justice, fairness and democracy" IF you're white, male and rich.

 

How about America? "No taxation without representation" was a crucial factor in starting the War of Independence.

 

Unlike their British brethren, the people living in the 13 colonies did not have direct representatives in the British parliament. Because of that, the colonists had no way to vote for how they would be taxed or who would represent them.

 

LINK

 

No way to vote? Surely that can't be right, given the "justice, fairness and democracy" you cite.

 

Here's a more modern example of this "justice, fairness and democracy" (those with weak stomachs should probably avoid paragraph 4).

 

Caroline Elkins, a professor at Harvard, spent nearly 10 years compiling the evidence contained in her book Britain's Gulag: the Brutal End of Empire in Kenya. She started her research with the belief that the British account of the suppression of the Kikuyu's Mau Mau revolt in the 1950s was largely accurate. Then she discovered that most of the documentation had been destroyed. She worked through the remaining archives, and conducted 600 hours of interviews with Kikuyu survivors – rebels and loyalists – and British guards, settlers and officials. Her book is fully and thoroughly documented. It won the Pulitzer prize. But as far as Sandbrook, James and other imperial apologists are concerned, it might as well never have been written.

 

Elkins reveals that the British detained not 80,000 Kikuyu, as the official histories maintain, but almost the entire population of one and a half million people, in camps and fortified villages. There, thousands were beaten to death or died from malnutrition, typhoid, tuberculosis and dysentery. In some camps almost all the children died.

 

The inmates were used as slave labour. Above the gates were edifying slogans, such as "Labour and freedom" and "He who helps himself will also be helped". Loudspeakers broadcast the national anthem and patriotic exhortations. People deemed to have disobeyed the rules were killed in front of the others. The survivors were forced to dig mass graves, which were quickly filled. Unless you have a strong stomach I advise you to skip the next paragraph.

 

Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were anally raped, using knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels, snakes and scorpions. A favourite technique was to hold a man upside down, his head in a bucket of water, while sand was rammed into his rectum with a stick. Women were gang-raped by the guards. People were mauled by dogs and electrocuted. The British devised a special tool which they used for first crushing and then ripping off testicles. They used pliers to mutilate women's breasts. They cut off inmates' ears and fingers and gouged out their eyes. They dragged people behind Land Rovers until their bodies disintegrated. Men were rolled up in barbed wire and kicked around the compound.

 

Elkins provides a wealth of evidence to show that the horrors of the camps were endorsed at the highest levels. The governor of Kenya, Sir Evelyn Baring, regularly intervened to prevent the perpetrators from being brought to justice. The colonial secretary, Alan Lennox-Boyd, repeatedly lied to the House of Commons. This is a vast, systematic crime for which there has been no reckoning.

 

No matter. Even those who acknowledge that something happened write as if Elkins and her work did not exist. In the Telegraph, Daniel Hannan maintains that just eleven people were beaten to death. Apart from that, "1,090 terrorists were hanged and as many as 71,000 detained without due process".

 

The British did not do body counts, and most victims were buried in unmarked graves. But it is clear that tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of Kikuyu died in the camps and during the round-ups.

 

LINK

 

Lovely! And this is the sort of conduct you're proud of is it?

[Harleyman]

We never lost our greatness, we spent blood and treasure fighting dictators throughout the 20th century, at first alone, then joined by the US when they realised that if we failed they were next. They then stabbed us in the back causing us to lose the empire. Ours was the greatest empire in the history of the world. Built on justice, fairness and democracy.Even after we gave up the Empire there are still 15/16 countries whoo recognise the Queen as head of state. The Yanks drool over our royal family.

 

We are a small country now, but we are still a great one, be proud.

 

That still didnt stop all those countries wanting independence. Who was Mahatma Ghandi for instance? There were many others. The empire had to be given up or else the alternative would have been similar to the French having to fight wars to stay as in Algeria and Indo-China and losing in the end anyway. and having to leave.

 

True the Yanks do seem to go a bit soft in the head when it comes to Royalty. I thinks it's all those fancy uniforms, pomp and ceremony and princes and princesses that impress them.

I imagine those parades and the music add to to the fascination'

 

Personally I'd sooner watch our local Christmas parade. Eighteen year old high school cheerleaders prancing along main street kicking their legs in the air does more for a dirty old man like me that a squad of big brawny Coldstream Guardsmen

[Anna B]

Britain's whole ethos seems to be confrontational, it's built into our system.

 

We have major class divisions (which are growing wider,) with no respect on either side, and this percolates into the work environment, with an 'us and them' attitude. Hardly conducive for harmony.

 

We value Academia and look down on 'trade' whereas in Germany technical knowhow is acknowledged as of equal importance and vital to the economy. Here Management look down on the shopfloor and exploit them, the shopfloor skive if possible to make up for perceived injustices.

God forbid a 'pleb' should get above his station and try to advance, or have a good idea, - who's going to listen? Good ideas are the province of management only. Went to the wrong school old boy - we can't have that...

 

They just don't work together.

[truman]

Britain's whole ethos seems to be confrontational, it's built into our system.

 

We have major class divisions (which are growing wider,) with no respect on either side, and this percolates into the work environment, with an 'us and them' attitude. Hardly conducive for harmony.

 

We value Academia and look down on 'trade' whereas in Germany technical knowhow is acknowledged as of equal importance and vital to the economy. Here Management look down on the shopfloor and exploit them, the shopfloor skive if possible to make up for perceived injustices.

 

They just don't work together.

 

I'm not sure "Academia" is the same as "Technical Knowledge" When was the last time you were in modern factory Anna?

[buck]

That still didnt stop all those countries wanting independence. Who was Mahatma Ghandi for instance? There were many others. The empire had to be given up or else the alternative would have been similar to the French having to fight wars to stay as in Algeria and Indo-China and losing in the end anyway. and having to leave.

 

True the Yanks do seem to go a bit soft in the head when it comes to Royalty. I thinks it's all those fancy uniforms, pomp and ceremony and princes and princesses that impress them.

I imagine those parades and the music add to to the fascination'

 

Personally I'd sooner watch our local Christmas parade. Eighteen year old high school cheerleaders prancing along main street kicking their legs in the air does more for a dirty old man like me that a squad of big brawny Coldstream Guardsmen

I must admit we love a parade. Almost every town has a parade around Independence Day, and Memorial Day, then there's the Rose's on New Years Day, Macys from NYC, and of course St. Pats. But the best of all come from Britain when a Royal does something other than totally upset SF, which is rare, and costs every subject in the nation tenpence each.

[Hillpig]

Sometimes they even suck their toes.

 

I think she sucked his.

 

---------- Post added 08-08-2013 at 14:24 ----------

 

That still didnt stop all those countries wanting independence. Who was Mahatma Ghandi for instance? There were many others. The empire had to be given up or else the alternative would have been similar to the French having to fight wars to stay as in Algeria and Indo-China and losing in the end anyway. and having to leave.

 

True the Yanks do seem to go a bit soft in the head when it comes to Royalty. I thinks it's all those fancy uniforms, pomp and ceremony and princes and princesses that impress them.

I imagine those parades and the music add to to the fascination'

 

Personally I'd sooner watch our local Christmas parade. Eighteen year old high school cheerleaders prancing along main street kicking their legs in the air does more for a dirty old man like me that a squad of big brawny Coldstream Guardsmen

 

The empire had to be given up because we were bankrupt, we had fought the greatest war in the history of mankind alone. In doing so we put ourselves into hock with the USA (a debt we paid). As part of the support we received we agreed to dismantle the empire.

 

Your comparison with the French is erroneous, they gave up their empire at the same time and for broadly similar reasons.

 

You will no doubt remind me of the contribution the US made in the second world war, I acknowledge and accept that, however, it needed the Japanese to attack and Hitler to declare war before the US got involved.

 

The UK never needed to declare war on Germany it did so because we owed a debt of honour to Poland. The US entered the war because it was in its interests to do so. It could and maybe should, have restricted its conflict to Japan.

 

Had the British under Lord Halifax come to terms with Hitler in 1940, the Empire would still exist and the world would be better for it.

[tinfoilhat]

I think she sucked his.

 

---------- Post added 08-08-2013 at 14:24 ----------

 

 

The empire had to be given up because we were bankrupt, we had fought the greatest war in the history of mankind alone. In doing so we put ourselves into hock with the USA (a debt we paid). As part of the support we received we agreed to dismantle the empire.

 

Your comparison with the French is erroneous, they gave up their empire at the same time and for broadly similar reasons.

 

You will no doubt remind me of the contribution the US made in the second world war, I acknowledge and accept that, however, it needed the Japanese to attack and Hitler to declare war before the US got involved.

 

The UK never needed to declare war on Germany it did so because we owed a debt of honour to Poland. The US entered the war because it was in its interests to do so. It could and maybe should, have restricted its conflict to Japan.

 

Had the British under Lord Halifax come to terms with Hitler in 1940, the Empire would still exist and the world would be better for it.

 

I think 20 odd million dead Russians might disagree with you there.

[Hillpig]

How exactly did they do that?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the British Empire was absolutely fine until 1945 and then collapsed quicker than Luis Suarez after a tackle?

 

 

 

 

Oh please! During the height of the British Empire, even British women didn't have the right to vote. It wasn't until 1930 that women under 21 got the vote.

 

No Indian nationals, male or female, had the right to vote until 1919:

 

 

 

LINK

 

Yeah, "justice, fairness and democracy" IF you're white, male and rich.

 

How about America? "No taxation without representation" was a crucial factor in starting the War of Independence.

 

 

 

LINK

 

No way to vote? Surely that can't be right, given the "justice, fairness and democracy" you cite.

 

Here's a more modern example of this "justice, fairness and democracy" (those with weak stomachs should probably avoid paragraph 4).

 

 

 

LINK

 

Lovely! And this is the sort of conduct you're proud of is it?

 

You are judging by todays standards, what we today call racism was an accepted norm, "taxation without representation" can be countered by pointing out that the Brits were protecting the colonials from the French and the colonials didn't want to pay for it.

 

As for conjuring up some Harvard nondescript, for every one who you can find I can find another stating that we did a pretty good job.

 

The empire was of its time, compared to the other colonial powers we did well, we should celebrate that and stop beating ourselves up.