Benedictine Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 No, they're just banning the prams...not the people ...Pubs don't have to allow kids in if they don't want to... Of course they are banning the people, for where are you supposed to put the pram, up your... Unless someone can prove that it was related to one of those factors (by establishing a pattern for example) then no, not dodgy grounds at all. I think it is dodgy. If a black person walked into a pub and the landlord said 'sorry I'm not serving you, I don't like the look of you' you are telling me that is not dodgy ground? Yes they can do that, but that is the very essence of dodgy ground in my book. Not true, unless your pram becomes glued to your hands when you have a child. Again, are you supposed to shove the pram up your... As clearly you aren't allowed to fold it down and put it in a corner somewhere. Just to keep the thread going....If he has a family licence for the pub, he is effectively banning babies. Can he do that under the term of the licence? Yes this is a good question. Why not just say no children under 5? I wonder if this is legal if you have a family license. If so, you just drop the 'no prams' for 'no children under 5'. Though you can still say 'no prams' anyway it appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Ok, this has developed a little whilst I've had a morning of work Couple of things... The Equality Act applies to all service providers, and despite the fact that you can call it a public house, or whatever else, pubs are service providers. Shops fall into that category, even law firms. I remember all the checks we had to carry out when this came into force. Changes to the office layout happened, as they did in many offices. As I mentioned, you can't discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic. It's an objective test for both whether you have discriminated, and whether it was justified. You still can discriminate, but you need to be sure you can justify it. In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok. To bar, for example, anyone Indian, would of course be wrong, and as it should be, illegal. Someone mentioned the guest house issue, and the couple not allowing gay couples to stay. That was always going to be a difficult case, as you've two protected characteristics, religion and sexuality, effectively squaring up to each other. As a Court, do you risk upsetting the religious or the gay communities more? I'm glad I didn't have to decide that one, although I'd have favoured the gay community, not being religious (although I'm not gay either, but strongly in favour of gay rights). You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, but, as before, it would come down to justification. Summary - you can discriminate against people, but make sure you have a very good reason if you plan to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictine Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Ok, this has developed a little whilst I've had a morning of work Couple of things... The Equality Act applies to all service providers, and despite the fact that you can call it a public house, or whatever else, pubs are service providers. Shops fall into that category, even law firms. I remember all the checks we had to carry out when this came into force. Changes to the office layout happened, as they did in many offices. As I mentioned, you can't discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic. It's an objective test for both whether you have discriminated, and whether it was justified. You still can discriminate, but you need to be sure you can justify it. In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok. To bar, for example, anyone Indian, would of course be wrong, and as it should be, illegal. Someone mentioned the guest house issue, and the couple not allowing gay couples to stay. That was always going to be a difficult case, as you've two protected characteristics, religion and sexuality, effectively squaring up to each other. As a Court, do you risk upsetting the religious or the gay communities more? I'm glad I didn't have to decide that one, although I'd have favoured the gay community, not being religious (although I'm not gay either, but strongly in favour of gay rights). You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, but, as before, it would come down to justification. Summary - you can discriminate against people, but make sure you have a very good reason if you plan to do it! Fantastic summary, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, but, as before, it would come down to justification. Summary - you can discriminate against people, but make sure you have a very good reason if you plan to do it! You would not be able to ban wheelchairs, just because you felt that there wasnt enough space. I know a wheelchair user that used to get carried upstair, to a night club on the first floor. The owner would need to make reasonable provision for wheel/push chairs. Unless we are discussing a pokey cafe, that clearly did not hae ANY space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 You would not be able to ban wheelchairs, just because you felt that there wasnt enough space. I know a wheelchair user that used to get carried upstair, to a night club on the first floor. The owner would need to make reasonable provision for wheel/push chairs. Unless we are discussing a pokey cafe, that clearly did not hae ANY space. I agree that they should make provision for wheelchairs but why pushchairs? There's no legal requirement to admit children into pubs..as far as I know anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 As I mentioned, you can't discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic. (potentially parents, a protected characteristic) You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, Moosey knows more about it than me, and he says "potentially parents, a protected characteristic". So they would/could be in the same group as wheelchairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 You would not be able to ban wheelchairs, just because you felt that there wasnt enough space. I know a wheelchair user that used to get carried upstair, to a night club on the first floor. The owner would need to make reasonable provision for wheel/push chairs. Unless we are discussing a pokey cafe, that clearly did not hae ANY space. Hence my comment, make sure you have a very good reason. Pushchairs aren't essential; the child can sit on someone's lap, on a booster seat, in a high chair etc. A person in a wheel chair requires that chair, hence there needs to be a very good reason to refuse access to wheelchairs. In honesty, I can't think of a good reason for the vast, vast majority of places. ---------- Post added 08-08-2013 at 13:56 ---------- I agree that they should make provision for wheelchairs but why pushchairs? There's no legal requirement to admit children into pubs..as far as I know anyway.. The law says they're allowed in pubs at certain ages, but again it comes to justification. You could argue it's an inappropriate setting for a small child, that there's no provision for the child in terms of equipment and facilities, or any number of other reasons. Most of this is hypothetical though, and never tested. Most pubs that don't allow children are more "lively" shall we say, and parents wouldn't really want to take small children. The further reality is that 99.9999% of people turned away in such a situation would investigate or proceed with any argument on the point I suspect. Anyway, off to my second job now, so have fun people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy lady Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Hi, thanks for reading. I'm looking for anyone with genuine legal knowledge about the pub trade to answer something that has had me wondering for a few days. I have looked and googled around and asked but have not been able to come across a factual answer. Basically I came across a sign outside a pub that banned prams from the premises - "no prams allowed on the premises at any time." By 'prams' I assume they mean it as an umbrella term for all buggies, pushchairs etc. The pub did allow children until 7pm but not prams. My question is, quite simply, is this legal? It is not legal, I gather, to ban wheelchairs, so if it is legal to blanket ban prams why is it not to ban wheelchairs. Or how about large bags, shopping trolley's etc? Is this not discriminatory in some way? * Please note: I am NOT interested in general opinion about children in pubs or such debates. I am only interested in the factual, legal position of this, so please do not spam and troll this thread if you have no factual advice to give. If you want to discuss that then open a new one and do so there.* Thank you. A pub can admit who they like if it can be shown to be non discriminatory. A landlord could argue that a pub is not the place for tots in pushchairs. So not much problem there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Just to keep the thread going....If he has a family licence for the pub, he is effectively banning babies. Can he do that under the term of the licence? No he isn't, unless you think babies are glued into prams. ---------- Post added 08-08-2013 at 16:50 ---------- Of course they are banning the people, for where are you supposed to put the pram, up your... Not his problem, but as a few examples, you could put it in your car. You could fasten it to something outside, you could have arrived carrying a child and without it. Banning it does not in any way ban you or a child. I think it is dodgy. If a black person walked into a pub and the landlord said 'sorry I'm not serving you, I don't like the look of you' you are telling me that is not dodgy ground? Yes they can do that, but that is the very essence of dodgy ground in my book. I'm telling you that being black does not guarantee that you will not be barred or refused service. If the landlord made a habit of barring black people then that would become quite obvious and then he'd be challenged on it. If he made a habit of barring people he didn't like, and that wasn't related to colour, then no challenge on racist grounds would be possible. Again, are you supposed to shove the pram up your... As clearly you aren't allowed to fold it down and put it in a corner somewhere. already answered Yes this is a good question. Why not just say no children under 5? I wonder if this is legal if you have a family license. If so, you just drop the 'no prams' for 'no children under 5'. Though you can still say 'no prams' anyway it appears. You can say no hats, no football colours, nobody in trainers, so why not no prams. Your argument now seems to be that children come with prams attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 You can say no hats, no football colours, nobody in trainers, so why not no prams. Your argument now seems to be that children come with prams attached. There is a trend to use car seats instead; but how many mothers would be ok with leaing baby outside whilst it slept. Dont babies sleep 24/7? So effectiely, babies are "attached" to prams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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