Is the "Special Relationship" over

[Harleyman]

you have got to be kidding. I live in south east Asia half the year, and have done for over ten years. I certainly do not need any lectures about what the Japanese got up to over there from the likes of you.

 

my post was merely to try to correct some of the myths that have been force fed to the American public over the years regarding Pearl Harbor - namely that it was the USA and the USA only that was attacked, when in fact Pearl Harbor was only one part of the Japanese general offensive on that day and that Malaya was actually fired upon first, before any of the bombs dropped in Hawaii. And also that it was a surprise, when it clearly was not, to those in the know (which does not I'm afraid include, our man behind the counter of the feed store, in Minnesota).

 

I never said that Pearl was the only target that day. You suddenly changed your discussion about some kind of real war going on between the US and the Axis prior to Pearl, now you're pointing out about who was also attacked that same day. : huh:

 

You were suggesting also that Roosevelt knew that an attack would occur and purposely risking American lives lost just to get into another war. That would be a criminal act and subject to impeachment, removal from office and imprisonment if not worse He may well have known that perhaps sooner or later America would have to enter the war not knowing exactly how at that time but to suggest that he criminally and knowingly and by neglect allowed an attack to happen resulting in the death of citizens and destruction of property is just the typical garbage that conspiracy theorists love to spout.

 

Leave Minnesotans out of it. They are not uninformed hayseeds and even if by the ways of rural life in those times they werent up to snuff on the goings on in Washington thay were far, far better people than the millions of brainwashed, arm waving fools in Hitler's Germany and the superstitious sky pixie worshipping populace of Tojo's Japan. They all went to war like lemmings tumbling over a precipice, completely bamboozled by their leaders

 

---------- Post added 29-04-2014 at 19:10 ----------

 

As thousands of innocent women and children died in those atomic bomb attacks I think believing they got what they deserved is a little on the cruel side.

 

As the US had the atom bomb I always wondered why they didn't simply call a truce and demonstrate the power of the bomb to the Japanese.

 

If they still refused to surrender then fair enough.

 

My theory for what it's worth, is that what the US was really doing was showing the Russians not only that they had the weapon, but were ruthless enough to use it on a civilian target.

 

Still makes me smile when Americans or the British for that matter start lecturing other nations on use of power.

 

Telling other countries that it's unexceptable to use force against another country does not seem right coming from either party.

 

So after almost four years of bitter fighting in the Pacific you would on the grounds of some kind of humanitarian feeling decide against the use of the A-Bomb and allowed half a million more of your soldiers, sailors and airmen to become casualties instead? Allow the war to drag on another 6-8 months?

 

The problem with people who hold your view is that you argue history living in the age of the iPad. Have you ever watched any documentaries on WW2, seen the enormous amount of footage taken both on the battlefield and among the civilian population in the towns and cities?

 

Not a single adult living either in Britain or America on VJ Day had a single tear to shed about the A-Bombs dropped on Japan. The generation in Britain had seen their homes bombed. loved oned buried under piles of rubble, sons and daughters lost in distant lands or coming home shattered in body and mind. Do I have to spell it out? They were just all damned glad the war was finally over and they could be reunited once again to get on with their lives.

 

Your suggestion that at that time some kind of truce could have been arranged to show the Japanese what a nasty weapon the A-Bomb was is just laughable. Their cities were already flattened, thousands dead If that didnt send the message then their leaders were just blind to any thoughts of surrender. They were allowed however to keep their precious Emperor as one of their surrender agreements although by any standards he was a war criminal since he had done nothing to influence the cessation of the war when it was obvious by 1943 that Japan would lose

 

Perhaps as you say it was also to show the Russians what kind of weapon the US had in it's arsenal. Stalin had renaged on the agreement to allow the Polish goverment in exile in London to return and instead placed his own Commuinist puppets in power. Churchill as it turned out to be true had warned that Russia intended to occupy and annex the other countries in that area as part of his new empire. It was perceived by some to be another new threat

[blake]

 

You were suggesting also that Roosevelt knew that an attack would occur

 

Roosevelt certainly suspected or even expected, an attack would occur. That is what everything pointed to for him. He just didn't know exactly when, or where. It could have been a whole bunch of places. But it turned out to be Pearl Harbor.

 

Roosevelt also knew in 1941, if suspecting and even expecting something may happen is 'knowing', that if there really was a going to be a real world war, then there was likely to emerge the USA as the main winner. There is a case for saying that Roosevelt - polio victim and all - was the best warlord of the lot of them. Possibly better than Hitler, Stalin and Churchill combined.

 

Roosevelt got it right. The USA did win. But he didn't live long enough because he died between Yalta and Potsdam, to see for himself that there was not one, but two strategic winners of WW2.

[Harleyman]

Roosevelt certainly suspected or even expected, an attack would occur. That is what everything pointed to for him. He just didn't know exactly when, or where. It could have been a whole bunch of places. But it turned out to be Pearl Harbor.

 

Roosevelt also knew in 1941, if suspecting and even expecting something may happen is 'knowing', that if there really was a going to be a real world war, then there was likely to emerge the USA as the main winner.

 

Roosevelt got it right. The USA did win. But he didn't live long enough because he died between Yalta and Potsdam, to see for himself that there was not one, but two strategic winners of WW2.

 

In 1940 the US started the draft and the armaments industry started to gear up so yes Roosevelt did know that in all likelihood the country would get into the war so we agree on that. But he did not intentionally criminally abuse his office as President by participating in some kind of cover up before Pearl. That's just fodder for conspiracy dolts.

 

The truth of the matter as many historians have said is that the Japanese planes were spotted incoming on radar by two low ranking army radar operators.

They called a junior lieutenant who was i/c the radar operation at his place in Honolulu and told him they had seen something on the radar. The officer told them it was probably some Air Corps B-17s coming in to land and who were also expected. There it happened on a sleepy Sunday morning in Hawaii when everyone was off base or nursing hangovers from the previous evening

[blake]

I don't really want to get into a discussion about level of preparedness of the US airforce at Pearl however at Clark Field they really should have done a better job. They had advance warning that they were going to get done. They were awful, considering. Although the US defence of the Philippines was much better than the Brits managed in Malaya and Singapore.

 

But he did not intentionally criminally abuse his responsibilities as President by participating in some kind of cover up before Pearl. That's just fodder for conspiracy dolts.

 

totally agree. It was such a confusing time that there will always be grist for the conspiracy nuts.

 

the 7th and 8th get confused because the Japanese attacked across the international dateline (a total one off incidentally, which nobody else has ever done). Events were changing globally, by the hour. And the 11th was the day that capped it, when Roosevelt went to Congress and the USA found itself declaring war on three powers (Germany, Italy and Japan), in one day. Pretty impressive. Even declaring war on two powers in one day is quite impressive. The Japanese declaration of war was not just against the USA, but also Britain. So they did two at once. Thailand did the same as that a few weeks later when they also declared war on the USA and Britain on the same day.

[mjw47]

 

---------- Post added 29-04-2014 at 19:10 ----------

 

 

So after almost four years of bitter fighting in the Pacific you would on the grounds of some kind of humanitarian feeling decide against the use of the A-Bomb and allowed half a million more of your soldiers, sailors and airmen to become casualties instead? Allow the war to drag on another 6-8 months?

 

The problem with people who hold your view is that you argue history living in the age of the iPad. Have you ever watched any documentaries on WW2, seen the enormous amount of footage taken both on the battlefield and among the civilian population in the towns and cities?

 

Not a single adult living either in Britain or America on VJ Day had a single tear to shed about the A-Bombs dropped on Japan. The generation in Britain had seen their homes bombed. loved oned buried under piles of rubble, sons and daughters lost in distant lands or coming home shattered in body and mind. Do I have to spell it out? They were just all damned glad the war was finally over and they could be reunited once again to get on with their lives.

 

Your suggestion that at that time some kind of truce could have been arranged to show the Japanese what a nasty weapon the A-Bomb was is just laughable. Their cities were already flattened, thousands dead If that didnt send the message then their leaders were just blind to any thoughts of surrender. They were allowed however to keep their precious Emperor as one of their surrender agreements although by any standards he was a war criminal since he had done nothing to influence the cessation of the war when it was obvious by 1943 that Japan would lose

 

Perhaps as you say it was also to show the Russians what kind of weapon the US had in it's arsenal. Stalin had renaged on the agreement to allow the Polish goverment in exile in London to return and instead placed his own Commuinist puppets in power. Churchill as it turned out to be true had warned that Russia intended to occupy and annex the other countries in that area as part of his new empire. It was perceived by some to be another new threat

 

Harleyman.

 

For some inexplicable reason I quite like you, but there is no doubt that you can be a bloodthirsty asshole of the first degree.

 

You did note my comment that if they didn't then surrender the bomb should have been dropped?

 

I am too young ( not an expression I use a lot these days ) to have become involved in a war that I felt obliged to become involved with and for that I am grateful.

 

However, I am the son of a man who served throughout the Second World War and saw his share of action in France and North Africa, he saw his friends die in front of him, and killed the enemies of his country.

 

He came away with a totally different viewpoint to yours.

 

A gentle man at heart he saw good in everyone and blamed the 'powers that be' for causing all the death, destruction and pain to all combatants.

 

He believed that his generation were conned as many generations were before and after by the people who gained the most, and lost the least.

 

He grew older and wiser, and accepted what had happened as a travesty brought about by those who were in it for gain.

 

You on the other hand have grown older, but no wiser, you still accept the bullmanure fed to you years ago.

 

Perhaps it's too painful to acknowledge that the sacrifices you and your friends made were all for someone elses profit.

 

You are exactly the type of pawn that 'the man' loves, a patsy to the end.

[blake]

thank you for telling us, once and for all that you do not have any real interest or knowledge or appreciation of the flow of historical events.

 

as soon as anybody starts talking about their dad in uniform. Jeez.

[mjw47]

thank you for telling us, once and for all that you do not have any real interest or knowledge or appreciation of the flow of historical events.

 

as soon as anybody starts talking about their dad in uniform. Jeez.

 

Really? So real life experience is a bit too much for you to handle is it, you pompous pseudo intellectual?

 

Read a few of your overly pretentious posts on this forum in the past, you are without doubt an up yourself joke.

 

Harleyman may not be a master of historical facts but he makes you look like the prat you are.

 

Anyway keep posting your good for a laugh if nothing else.

[Harleyman]

I don't really want to get into a discussion about level of preparedness of the US airforce at Pearl however at Clark Field they really should have done a better job. They had advance warning that they were going to get done. They were awful, considering. Although the US defence of the Philippines was much better than the Brits managed in Malaya and Singapore.

 

But he did not intentionally criminally abuse his responsibilities as President by participating in some kind of cover up before Pearl. That's just fodder for conspiracy dolts.

 

totally agree. It was such a confusing time that there will always be grist for the conspiracy nuts.

 

the 7th and 8th get confused because the Japanese attacked across the international dateline (a total one off incidentally, which nobody else has ever done). Events were changing globally, by the hour. And the 11th was the day that capped it, when Roosevelt went to Congress and the USA found itself declaring war on three powers (Germany, Italy and Japan), in one day. Pretty impressive. Even declaring war on two powers in one day is quite impressive. The Japanese declaration of war was not just against the USA, but also Britain. So they did two at once. Thailand did the same as that a few weeks later when they also declared war on the USA and Britain on the same day.

 

As far as the state of unprepardness is concerned let's take a look ar the BEF in France in May 1940.

The new concept of tank warfare/blitzkrieg took the British and French armies completely off guard. The British force was led by a relic from WW one Lord Gort. Von Rundstedt's panzers and the Stuka dive bombers swept em off the field.The French army was much larger than the German, the French had better tanks than the Germans but the leadership was also abysmal.

 

It wasnt only the US that was off guard and come to think of it Stalin was too so lets not criticize the Americans too much because Hitler and the Japanese had planned for such a war for a long time before while we were dozing in a false sense of peace and security

 

---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 05:56 ----------

 

Really? So real life experience is a bit too much for you to handle is it, you pompous pseudo intellectual?

 

Read a few of your overly pretentious posts on this forum in the past, you are without doubt an up yourself joke.

 

Harleyman may not be a master of historical facts but he makes you look like the prat you are.

 

Anyway keep posting your good for a laugh if nothing else.

 

Now you're sounding like a pompous intellectual Where have I gone wrong on historical facts?

Clue me in but please spare me the 1960s stuff that Lennon used to spout on about. It all sounds familiar. The Man behind everything, every pol a warmongering profiteer. There's a lot of good in the world still and that should be recognized.

 

My father fought in WW2 also. From what he said he seemed to be proud of having served. I on the other hand was briefly part of a war that wasnt particularly anything to be proud of and plenty have let me know it. But still we move on in life to better things. I could have spent the years since with a flee in my ass but it was just a phase of my life that as the years go by becomes more and more inconsequential

 

My father-in-law on the other hand never said one way or the other what he thought of his time in WW2. His comments were limited and he too moved on becoming a succesful business man and pastor of his local church.

 

We're all different and that's just the way it is

[matsalleh]

Actually that's not true, I think we sent a couple of ships to ferry equipment to Australian troops

While in the RAF I and some 30 troops were in transit from Singaore to Hong Kon, in a C130 which landed in Saigon and unloaded some supplies.We were not allowed off theA/C except the flight crew and loadmaster.As soon as the load was off loaded it was collected by troops who were easily recognised by us as Aussies and Kiwis (commonwealth troops).As far as I know only 5 GSM medals were issued for Vietnam.

[blake]

the Brits did well to avoid getting entangled in Vietnam. But Marcos of the Philippines played the US the best. He took them for millions over the years in exchange for pretending to be an ally when there was never more than about fifty Filipinos in Vietnam under their flag at any one time. The aid he got from the US that didn't go on his wife's shoes, he spent on oppressing his own people. Marcos wasn't that stupid. He knew that one day the Americans would leave. Whereas Vietnam and the Philippines, would always be neighbours.