Is the "Special Relationship" over

[Harleyman]

What more can you expect from the French Resistance.

 

---------- Post added 04-09-2013 at 08:17 ----------

 

You know as well as I do, Hillpig, that that is never going to happen. No use flogging dead horses.

 

---------- Post added 04-09-2013 at 08:32 ----------

 

 

Although I have been less than complimentary about Americans, apart from being brash and noisy I actually have no issue with the American people. I go further and repeat that as far as the US serviceman goes their sacrifice was and is laudable and noble. As hosts the typical American is generous and welcoming.

 

My issue is with the Military/Industrial complex that runs your country behind the scenes. Before you call me paranoid study President Eisenhower's speech on this subject from 1959/60. He warned the world then and he was right.

My comments are not based on hatred, they are simply based on a premise that because you are basically an insular society you do not understand the nuances of dealing with the myriad other societies, belief systems and attitudes of others.

 

Your insistence in believing that your version of democracy is right for the rest of the world is wrong, in your own country less than 50% vote and to become elected to high office you need to be either rich or have rich backers (presumably with an agenda). I am not stating that it is all bad but it is certainly no better than anywhere else that purports to allow people to vote.

 

In short you are not always right. For instance you state that the UK is in a sorry state, how do you justify that? I am no fan of over generous state provision but if a man is out of work in the UK he does not starve, if he is ill he is cared for, education is generally of a decent standard and secondary education second to none.

 

I would further point out that compared to the rest of the western economies we are actually doing pretty well. We lost our 3star rating but that was some months after you lost yours.

 

The anonymity of the forum allows us to rant and rave and if I have been obnoxious to anyone I regret that. God Bless America, God Bless us all.

 

Eiasenhower presided over one of the biggest military buildups in history.

 

He was already getting himself involved in Vietnam.

 

He completely distanced himself from the rising civil rights movement

 

He wasnt that much of a wise or an effective leader as you might happen to believe

 

I wouldnt generalize either. Americans are not particularly brash and noisy anymore than English people are overly reserved and stand offish. You have to live a life among people and societies to really learn anything about them

[mjw47]

I am Hillpig, just because you and I disagree on most things doesn't mean we have to disagree on everything. On this subject you have written eloquently and I agree with every word.

 

No doubt we will disagree again in future.

 

Respect to you, keep the faith.

 

---------- Post added 05-09-2013 at 16:53 ----------

 

 

Twas a jest Hillpig, merely a jest. If everyone agreed all the time about everything there wouldn't be much to say would there?

 

As I understand it, Putin has stated that if proof can be provided as to the involvement of Assad in the chemical attack then he will side with the US.

Whilst I am no fan of Putin this does seem a sensible response.

 

A major problem as I see it is the statement that 'no boots will be placed on the ground'.

I totally appreciate the sentiment behind that statement, the West & America in particular have lost enough of their people in previous encounters in the area. However I cannot say I'm comfortable with the idea of 'humanitarian bombing'. Despite all the claims made as to the accuracy of these devices civilian casualties are guaranteed.

Factor in the presence of chemical weapons, no matter who has them & you have a recipe for disaster.

 

I am dubious as to how this helps matters.

[buck]

Really sorry you are so bored. Maybe the survivors of the 500,000 dead Iraquis will get bored as well.

 

A crime is a crime, Murder has no statutory limitation, Blair and Bush plotted and lied together to invade Iraq. Their lies and concerted crimes led to the deaths of innocents.

 

They should stand trial.

 

---------- Post added 05-09-2013 at 12:59 ----------

 

 

The proof is there for all to see in the dodgy dossier, there is further proof in the mountain of dead people they are responsible for killing.

 

Mecky do not defend the indefensible, try to look beyond your Labour party loyalty.

 

Think of those poor people who have suffered, think of how they regard us as it was our Leader, in our name,who countenanced this action.

But who is going to conduct this trial? The United Nations? Best of luck on that one. The Privy Council, the US Department of Justice, the FBI, Scotland Yard, Interpol? I know, Sheffield Forum, guess how impartial that would be. Guilty till proven innocent, Youtube law.

 

---------- Post added 05-09-2013 at 14:04 ----------

 

I appreciate your comments, I cannot agree that attacking Syria without substantive proof is justified on the basis that not to do so would encourage North Korea and Iran.

 

North Korea will not do a thing whilst you have your fleet in the South China sea and your army in South Korea. Iran has to be watched but poses no imminent threat.

 

If the US attacks Syria it will be portrayed as a bully, and with some justification. Don't do it. its just plain wrong unless the UN states unequivocally that Assad had used gas on his own people.

 

If this happens I believe that the British Parliament should be recalled and another vote taken, in these circumstances I believe we should act to prevent further such attacks on the Syrian people.

 

There is no contradiction here, there is as yet no proof.

 

---------- Post added 05-09-2013 at 17:50 ----------

 

 

I am aware of these videos, personally I find more accurate facts in the Beano.

Thank you, Hillpig, we agree on little, but this time I certainly do. I didn't look at any of these links and you saved me the trouble.

[mjw47]

But who is going to conduct this trial? The United Nations? Best of luck on that one. The Privy Council, the US Department of Justice, the FBI, Scotland Yard, Interpol? I know, Sheffield Forum, guess how impartial that would be. Guilty till proven innocent, Youtube law.

 

The International Criminal Court based in the Hague in the Netherlands was set up for precisely this purpose.

[buck]

The International Criminal Court based in the Hague in the Netherlands was set up for precisely this purpose.

So let's see them do something, but don't hold your breath. I'm not saying I don't agree, but I've been on earth long enough to know what happens. Some of the younger people don't believe the holocaust happened, or worse still think the jews deserved it. It happened and the jews did not deserve it.

[mjw47]

Agree Buck, crap happens, & very rarely does justice follow. What I am saying is that if there was any justice, Tony Blair & George W Bush would answer to a court of law for their complicity in what was obviously a premeditated set up to wage an illegal war.

 

In reality of course, not only will they get away with it, they will prosper from it, that's the way things work.

 

Doesn't make it right though, does it Buck?

[buck]

What more can you expect from the French Resistance.

 

---------- Post added 04-09-2013 at 08:17 ----------

 

 

Eiasenhower presided over one of the biggest military buildups in history.

 

He was already getting himself involved in Vietnam.

 

He completely distanced himself from the rising civil rights movement

 

He wasnt that much of a wise or an effective leader as you might happen to believe

 

I wouldnt generalize either. Americans are not particularly brash and noisy anymore than English people are overly reserved and stand offish. You have to live a life among people and societies to really learn anything about them

We have a tendency to shout USA, USA at any International sporting event we take part in, which must irritate the heck out of other nations. Perhaps we should start losing some of them for a change. We're not winning as much golf as we used to, nor tennis, and Canada does a pretty good job of showing us how good they are at their religion, hockey, known to you sun worshippers as ice hockey. We're not that good at soccer yet, but its coming. We will win the world series like we seem to do every year. Its been a good year when the NY Yankees lose. Our cyclists are in disgrace, and Britain is doing great. Good, you need someone better than Eddie the eagle. I suppose we'll win more Olympic medals than anybody else again despite the fact that we're all as fat as pigs from eating a dozen big macs a day with fries and coca cola. So USA! USA!

[Harleyman]

We have a tendency to shout USA, USA at any International sporting event we take part in, which must irritate the heck out of other nations. Perhaps we should start losing some of them for a change. We're not winning as much golf as we used to, nor tennis, and Canada does a pretty good job of showing us how good they are at their religion, hockey, known to you sun worshippers as ice hockey. We're not that good at soccer yet, but its coming. We will win the world series like we seem to do every year. Its been a good year when the NY Yankees lose. Our cyclists are in disgrace, and Britain is doing great. Good, you need someone better than Eddie the eagle. I suppose we'll win more Olympic medals than anybody else again despite the fact that we're all as fat as pigs from eating a dozen big macs a day with fries and coca cola. So USA! USA!

 

You see the same enthusiasm during the world cup matches. You always know where the German crowds are. They dont sing Deutschland Uber Alles. It offends some sensitivities too much but they make themselves known very well.

Not that i blame them. They always seem to have a great team (dammit ) and they're proud of them.

 

Americans seem to vary. I've seen the Red Sox play at Fenway Park and no one could accuse the crowds of "restrained enthusiasm" and I'm sure the same applies to the crowds at Yankee stadium.

 

Out west there's the enthusiasm alright at a Dodgers or Angels game but it's more laid back. Not so intense. Not the aggression

 

I went to a few hockey games while living in Montreal. They seemed to spend more time brawling than skating. Never took to it

[buck]

Agree Buck, crap happens, & very rarely does justice follow. What I am saying is that if there was any justice, Tony Blair & George W Bush would answer to a court of law for their complicity in what was obviously a premeditated set up to wage an illegal war.

 

In reality of course, not only will they get away with it, they will prosper from it, that's the way things work.

 

Doesn't make it right though, does it Buck?

No it does not. But I have enough problems trying to make sure my grandkids have enough to get a good life, and the cost of a college education for five of them would be prohibitive. I wish every kid everywhere in the world could have a good life too. Sending all the Bushes and Blairs of this world to jail won't change a thing though. take every penny they own off them, and send them out to fend like we all have to.

[Hillpig]

What more can you expect from the French Resistance.

 

---------- Post added 04-09-2013 at 08:17 ----------

 

 

Eiasenhower presided over one of the biggest military buildups in history.

 

He was already getting himself involved in Vietnam.

 

He completely distanced himself from the rising civil rights movement

 

He wasnt that much of a wise or an effective leader as you might happen to believe

 

I wouldnt generalize either. Americans are not particularly brash and noisy anymore than English people are overly reserved and stand offish. You have to live a life among people and societies to really learn anything about them

 

 

You are right, Eisenhower did build up US military strength to extraordinary levels. History may judge that he did this based on a misconception of Soviet strength and ambitions. In the 50s there was a strong belief in the US of a huge Soviet build up also that communism had infiltrated US society at every level, this was largely fuelled by Hoover at the FBI, Mcarthy was another.

 

The US must have looked at how Communism was infesting the western democracies, in Italy and France the party was very strong, in the UK the communists used different tactics obtaining control of trade unions and infiltrating the Labour party and the civil service. There was some justification in the US worries, but after the invasion, by the Soviets, of Hungary a great deal of western communists ceased to support Moscow.

 

Maybe it was this changed situation in 1956 that caused Eisenhower to recognize the danger of the Military/Industrial complex. Certainly by the end of his last term he was convinced of its danger. In one of his last speeches before retiring he was explicit as to its dangers.

 

You criticize my generalizations but then go on the generalize about the characteristics of the British. I would only say that if you entered a restaurant that was full of different nationalities you would soon find out where the Yanks were, they would be at the noisy table.

 

However, I concede that at another table there would be a very stiff and formal table with no laughter, that would be the Germans, if it was a buffet the French would refuse to queue. in one corner a shy, diffident set of people would keep saying sorry every time the waiter brushed past them. In another a fight would break out between a bunch of drunks who, fuelled by booze, had lost all there inhibitions and decided to wreck the joint, these latter tables would be the British.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 09:57 ----------

 

No it does not. But I have enough problems trying to make sure my grandkids have enough to get a good life, and the cost of a college education for five of them would be prohibitive. I wish every kid everywhere in the world could have a good life too. Sending all the Bushes and Blairs of this world to jail won't change a thing though. take every penny they own off them, and send them out to fend like we all have to.

 

I fully accept what you say regarding your responsibilities to your kids and grand kids. Its the same with me. I also wish I could ensure that every kid in the world could get a better life.

 

Personally I volunteer as a debt counselor, trying to help people who have fallen into bad times usually encouraged by Banks and the myriad pond life that infest our societies and encourage people to spend more than they earn.

 

MJW47 and me are poles apart on virtually everything, I suspect he votes Labour I am a true Blue Tory, but, (and I hope he will forgive me here for attempting to speak for him) we have difficulty in standing by and saying nothing when bad things are encountered. Bush and Blair may not be evil men but their arrogance and stupidity has led to the deaths of half a million people, and they have a case to answer.

 

How can we stand by as free men and say nothing? OK Sheffield Forum is not a powerful stage to speak from, he and I are not politicians or media barons but our ancestors fought for the freedom as did yours, to express ourselves freely and through this forum we do so.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 10:08 ----------

 

Twas a jest Hillpig, merely a jest. If everyone agreed all the time about everything there wouldn't be much to say would there?

 

As I understand it, Putin has stated that if proof can be provided as to the involvement of Assad in the chemical attack then he will side with the US.

Whilst I am no fan of Putin this does seem a sensible response.

 

A major problem as I see it is the statement that 'no boots will be placed on the ground'.

I totally appreciate the sentiment behind that statement, the West & America in particular have lost enough of their people in previous encounters in the area. However I cannot say I'm comfortable with the idea of 'humanitarian bombing'. Despite all the claims made as to the accuracy of these devices civilian casualties are guaranteed.

Factor in the presence of chemical weapons, no matter who has them & you have a recipe for disaster.

 

I am dubious as to how this helps matters.

 

The weird thing for me is that for the first time ever I agree with the Russians. Until there is absolute proof, backed by the UN we, and the US, should stay out of this.

 

The Iranians have been in the very forefront of seeking to ban chemical weapons, they know a great deal about them after the Iraq/Iran war.

 

Surely, Cary would be better deployed going to Teheran, seeking to get the new Iranian leader on side. In a stroke improving relations with Iran and jointly tackling the Syrian issue. If he fails at least he tried. US reputation would improve immensely.

 

This would not be appeasement, this would be statesmanship. We need statesmen.