Is the "Special Relationship" over

[mjw47]

Buck, I too have grandchildren &, like most of us I suspect, worry about their future.

The thing is Buck, if people like Bush & Blair were called to account for their actions it would send a powerful message to future politicians & dictators about thinking long & hard before taking action which they would be called to account for.

I think there's a good chance under those circumstances any such action would await UN approval before implementation.

Surely that would be an improvement on the present situation?

Perhaps all our grandchildren would then have a chance of a more peaceful life.

 

 

Hillpig. No I'm not a labour supporter, I hold all politicians in equal contempt. The rest of your point was well made & I agree.

As to Blair & Bush not being evil you may well be right but their actions caused evil things to happen & they should be called to account.

 

My personal feeling on Blair is that I think he is slightly deranged. How this man can go about his life without an apparent care in the world is beyond me.

The fact he is also advocating military action in Syria as a former Peace Envoy to the area would be hilarious if it wasn't for the seriousness of the situation.

[Hillpig]

Buck, I too have grandchildren &, like most of us I suspect, worry about their future.

The thing is Buck, if people like Bush & Blair were called to account for their actions it would send a powerful message to future politicians & dictators about thinking long & hard before taking action which they would be called to account for.

I think there's a good chance under those circumstances any such action would await UN approval before implementation.

Surely that would be an improvement on the present situation?

Perhaps all our grandchildren would then have a chance of a more peaceful life.

 

 

Hillpig. No I'm not a labour supporter, I hold all politicians in equal contempt. The rest of your point was well made & I agree.

As to Blair & Bush not being evil you may well be right but their actions caused evil things to happen & they should be called to account.

 

My personal feeling on Blair is that I think he is slightly deranged. How this man can go about his life without an apparent care in the world is beyond me.

The fact he is also advocating military action in Syria as a former Peace Envoy to the area would be hilarious if it wasn't for the seriousness of the situation.

 

I never considered Blair may be deranged, but you may well be right, there are strange stories about him baptizing people whilst he was dressed all in white.

 

Without in anyway attacking seriously religious people I have always equated extreme religiosity with mental health issues.

 

Regarding politicians, whilst I do agree that the current crop are unbelievably bad I have a little time for Cameron and Osborne, cynically I tend to trust them because they are rich, I don't see the point in fiddling when you don't need to. Other than them, with a few exceptions I find them strange and a bit spooky.

[buck]

 

 

You are right, Eisenhower did build up US military strength to extraordinary levels. History may judge that he did this based on a misconception of Soviet strength and ambitions. In the 50s there was a strong belief in the US of a huge Soviet build up also that communism had infiltrated US society at every level, this was largely fuelled by Hoover at the FBI, Mcarthy was another.

 

The US must have looked at how Communism was infesting the western democracies, in Italy and France the party was very strong, in the UK the communists used different tactics obtaining control of trade unions and infiltrating the Labour party and the civil service. There was some justification in the US worries, but after the invasion, by the Soviets, of Hungary a great deal of western communists ceased to support Moscow.

 

Maybe it was this changed situation in 1956 that caused Eisenhower to recognize the danger of the Military/Industrial complex. Certainly by the end of his last term he was convinced of its danger. In one of his last speeches before retiring he was explicit as to its dangers.

 

You criticize my generalizations but then go on the generalize about the characteristics of the British. I would only say that if you entered a restaurant that was full of different nationalities you would soon find out where the Yanks were, they would be at the noisy table.

 

However, I concede that at another table there would be a very stiff and formal table with no laughter, that would be the Germans, if it was a buffet the French would refuse to queue. in one corner a shy, diffident set of people would keep saying sorry every time the waiter brushed past them. In another a fight would break out between a bunch of drunks who, fuelled by booze, had lost all there inhibitions and decided to wreck the joint, these latter tables would be the British.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 09:57 ----------

 

 

I fully accept what you say regarding your responsibilities to your kids and grand kids. Its the same with me. I also wish I could ensure that every kid in the world could get a better life.

 

Personally I volunteer as a debt counselor, trying to help people who have fallen into bad times usually encouraged by Banks and the myriad pond life that infest our societies and encourage people to spend more than they earn.

 

MJW47 and me are poles apart on virtually everything, I suspect he votes Labour I am a true Blue Tory, but, (and I hope he will forgive me here for attempting to speak for him) we have difficulty in standing by and saying nothing when bad things are encountered. Bush and Blair may not be evil men but their arrogance and stupidity has led to the deaths of half a million people, and they have a case to answer.

 

How can we stand by as free men and say nothing? OK Sheffield Forum is not a powerful stage to speak from, he and I are not politicians or media barons but our ancestors fought for the freedom as did yours, to express ourselves freely and through this forum we do so.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 10:08 ----------

 

 

The weird thing for me is that for the first time ever I agree with the Russians. Until there is absolute proof, backed by the UN we, and the US, should stay out of this.

 

The Iranians have been in the very forefront of seeking to ban chemical weapons, they know a great deal about them after the Iraq/Iran war.

 

Surely, Cary would be better deployed going to Teheran, seeking to get the new Iranian leader on side. In a stroke improving relations with Iran and jointly tackling the Syrian issue. If he fails at least he tried. US reputation would improve immensely.

 

This would not be appeasement, this would be statesmanship. We need statesmen.

Your description of the restaurant is hilarious, and absolutely true.

[Harleyman]

 

 

You are right, Eisenhower did build up US military strength to extraordinary levels. History may judge that he did this based on a misconception of Soviet strength and ambitions. In the 50s there was a strong belief in the US of a huge Soviet build up also that communism had infiltrated US society at every level, this was largely fuelled by Hoover at the FBI, Mcarthy was another.

 

The US must have looked at how Communism was infesting the western democracies, in Italy and France the party was very strong, in the UK the communists used different tactics obtaining control of trade unions and infiltrating the Labour party and the civil service. There was some justification in the US worries, but after the invasion, by the Soviets, of Hungary a great deal of western communists ceased to support Moscow.

 

Maybe it was this changed situation in 1956 that caused Eisenhower to recognize the danger of the Military/Industrial complex. Certainly by the end of his last term he was convinced of its danger. In one of his last speeches before retiring he was explicit as to its dangers.

 

You criticize my generalizations but then go on the generalize about the characteristics of the British. I would only say that if you entered a restaurant that was full of different nationalities you would soon find out where the Yanks were, they would be at the noisy table.

 

However, I concede that at another table there would be a very stiff and formal table with no laughter, that would be the Germans, if it was a buffet the French would refuse to queue. in one corner a shy, diffident set of people would keep saying sorry every time the waiter brushed past them. In another a fight would break out between a bunch of drunks who, fuelled by booze, had lost all there inhibitions and decided to wreck the joint, these latter tables would be the British.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 09:57 ----------

 

 

I fully accept what you say regarding your responsibilities to your kids and grand kids. Its the same with me. I also wish I could ensure that every kid in the world could get a better life.

 

Personally I volunteer as a debt counselor, trying to help people who have fallen into bad times usually encouraged by Banks and the myriad pond life that infest our societies and encourage people to spend more than they earn.

 

MJW47 and me are poles apart on virtually everything, I suspect he votes Labour I am a true Blue Tory, but, (and I hope he will forgive me here for attempting to speak for him) we have difficulty in standing by and saying nothing when bad things are encountered. Bush and Blair may not be evil men but their arrogance and stupidity has led to the deaths of half a million people, and they have a case to answer.

 

How can we stand by as free men and say nothing? OK Sheffield Forum is not a powerful stage to speak from, he and I are not politicians or media barons but our ancestors fought for the freedom as did yours, to express ourselves freely and through this forum we do so.

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 10:08 ----------

 

 

The weird thing for me is that for the first time ever I agree with the Russians. Until there is absolute proof, backed by the UN we, and the US, should stay out of this.

 

The Iranians have been in the very forefront of seeking to ban chemical weapons, they know a great deal about them after the Iraq/Iran war.

 

Surely, Cary would be better deployed going to Teheran, seeking to get the new Iranian leader on side. In a stroke improving relations with Iran and jointly tackling the Syrian issue. If he fails at least he tried. US reputation would improve immensely.

 

This would not be appeasement, this would be statesmanship. We need statesmen.

 

You misunderstood. obviously. What I meant was that claiming that Americans are loud and brassy as a whole is no more valid than claiming that Englsih people are reserved and stand offish as a whole. Both are innacurate generalizations

 

After many years away from Yorkshire and going back for a visit I had forgotten how friendly Yorkshire people are as a whole. In that way they are much like folks in the western states

[mjw47]

I never considered Blair may be deranged, but you may well be right, there are strange stories about him baptizing people whilst he was dressed all in white.

 

Without in anyway attacking seriously religious people I have always equated extreme religiosity with mental health issues.

 

Regarding politicians, whilst I do agree that the current crop are unbelievably bad I have a little time for Cameron and Osborne, cynically I tend to trust them because they are rich, I don't see the point in fiddling when you don't need to. Other than them, with a few exceptions I find them strange and a bit spooky.

 

Well, I was raised a Catholic but religion never really 'took' with me. Even as a young lad it seemed illogical & non rational to me.

Add in the fact that my father was C of E & my mother Catholic but neither was particularly religious, & I suppose it's no surprise I never made the Priesthood.

 

Think you're being a little naive in your theory as to rich people being honest because they are rolling in it, the reverse has been my experience.

 

Take Prince Andrew, never wanted for anything his whole life, born into a situation which precludes his ever losing everything.

Still doesn't prevent him from coming to an extremely dodgy deal with a Khazkan billionaire for £15 million even after he was advised against having dealings with the man by the government.

 

52% of MPs had to return expenses following false claims. David Cameron was apparently under the impression that the public should pay for his gardener.

 

Agree with you the present lot don't fill me with confidence. The last Prime Minister I had any time for was John Major. Not because of any political reason, simply because he struck me as a decent man trying to do his best.

[buck]

 

You misunderstood. obviously. What I meant was that claiming that Americans are loud and brassy as a whole is no more valid than claiming that Englsih people are reserved and stand offish as a whole. Both are innacurate generalizations

 

After many years away from Yorkshire and going back for a visit I had forgotten how friendly Yorkshire people are as a whole. In that way they are much like folks in the western states

As for here in the Northeast, they are a bit more reserved than you crazy Californians. Neither Boston nor NYC are famous for friendliness, and around here in these small pre colonial places you are likely to be viewed with suspicion if they don't know you. Ask your way in Maine and you'll probably be told you can't get there from here. But the friendships are solid and lifelong once you're accepted. Not to say they're not in the west. I don't think I ever met a Mainiac who was loud and brassy, as for Vermont, its the most silent place on earth except for Mel Torme.

[Harleyman]

As for here in the Northeast, they are a bit more reserved than you crazy Californians. Neither Boston nor NYC are famous for friendliness, and around here in these small pre colonial places you are likely to be viewed with suspicion if they don't know you. Ask your way in Maine and you'll probably be told you can't get there from here. But the friendships are solid and lifelong once you're accepted. Not to say they're not in the west. I don't think I ever met a Mainiac who was loud and brassy, as for Vermont, its the most silent place on earth except for Mel Torme.

 

I took a few weekend trips to Lake Champlain in Vermont during my short time in Canada. Nearest thing to a trip to the seaside you could get in that part of the world

 

You're right about Vermonters. About as dour, unfunny and uninspiring people I ever met. A lot of them are really French-Canadians born on the US side but they dont even have the outgoing extroverted liveliness that their cousins have on the Canuck side.

 

They like to watch the pennies too. Back then a Canadian dollar was worth 90 cents American. They would take Canadian dollars in the stores and anywhere else but they never let you get away with that ten cents on top of it

 

At least here in the west we have our Latinos. Party animals at the drop of a hat, sometimes a little crazy but never dull

[buck]

 

I took a few weekend trips to Lake Champlain in Vermont during my short time in Canada. Nearest thing to a trip to the seaside you could get in that part of the world

 

You're right about Vermonters. About as dour, unfunny and uninspiring people I ever met. A lot of them are really French-Canadians born on the US side but they dont even have the outgoing extroverted liveliness that their cousins have on the Canuck side.

 

They like to watch the pennies too. Back then a Canadian dollar was worth 90 cents American. They would take Canadian dollars in the stores and anywhere else but they never let you get away with that ten cents on top of it

 

At least here in the west we have our Latinos. Party animals at the drop of a hat, sometimes a little crazy but never dull

That's the seaside with mosquitoes and black flies. I worked for a while at Ticonderoga on the NY side of Lake Champlain where it joins Lake George. I was at the International Paper Company there as a tech rep, two pubs with big bicycle racks for the DUI guys banned from driving. Ti is the site of Fort Ticonderoga where Benedict Arnold threw out the French before turning traitor and joining the Brits. They still fire off cannon balls for the tourists. When I went to Canada in 68, the Canadian dollar was worth $1.10 American for a short time, but you only ever got change for a dollar American. All the slots in Canada would accept American coins, none in the US would accept Canadian. Outside New York State, Maine, or Vermont they wouldn't accept Canadian money at all.

[catpus]

At last the point scoring has stopped... And it looks good. It is fantastic when we can look for similarities rather than differences and be civil instead of rude.

The fact is that we all love our own countries and feel very protective, but that does not preclude us from observing and voicing what we see.

 

You as citizens of the U.S and we as citizens of the U.K have been played, with regard to Syria, and IMO we all should be investigating and sharing information with one another, not defending the actors in this dirty business. 'Our' special relationship should not be broken... 'we' the people, should not allow politicians to divide us......

I am sorry that some people have found my information tedious and somehow threatening because it challenged the status quo... it was never intended as such, but meant to be empowering.

[Harleyman]

That's the seaside with mosquitoes and black flies. I worked for a while at Ticonderoga on the NY side of Lake Champlain where it joins Lake George. I was at the International Paper Company there as a tech rep, two pubs with big bicycle racks for the DUI guys banned from driving. Ti is the site of Fort Ticonderoga where Benedict Arnold threw out the French before turning traitor and joining the Brits. They still fire off cannon balls for the tourists. When I went to Canada in 68, the Canadian dollar was worth $1.10 American for a short time, but you only ever got change for a dollar American. All the slots in Canada would accept American coins, none in the US would accept Canadian. Outside New York State, Maine, or Vermont they wouldn't accept Canadian money at all.

 

I well know of those black flies. They didnt just bite. They tore off bits of flesh... swear they did. I came back from a trip to the Laurentians looking like I'd done two rounds with Mike Tyson

 

I generally stayed in Burlington. Used to take the Greyhound from the bus terminal on Dorchester Blvd in downtown Montreal. We stayed at a bed and breakfast in Burlington. I was going with a French-Canadian girl then, 21 years old. She had been a novice nun but chucked it in somewhere along. Sad to say she was still clinging a little to her nun like ways and we had to have separate rooms.... the other option being marriage. I really enjoyed her company though. Great little girl and she was a fantastic ice skater, swimmer and skier

 

---------- Post added 06-09-2013 at 22:45 ----------

 

At last the point scoring has stopped... And it looks good. It is fantastic when we can look for similarities rather than differences and be civil instead of rude.

The fact is that we all love our own countries and feel very protective, but that does not preclude us from observing and voicing what we see.

 

You as citizens of the U.S and we as citizens of the U.K have been played, with regard to Syria, and IMO we all should be investigating and sharing information with one another, not defending the actors in this dirty business. 'Our' special relationship should not be broken... 'we' the people, should not allow politicians to divide us......

I am sorry that some people have found my information tedious and somehow threatening because it challenged the status quo... it was never intended as such, but meant to be empowering.

 

There's not much we can do if the country gets involved. I would just see it as another huge expense to the national treasury and wonder what a limited operation would achieve... if anything at all and what happens after that

.

The other side of the coin is they do nothing and it comes out the same.... unknown consequences

 

Maybe Obama and Putin now at the G-20 Summit might just amaze the living crap out of us and announce some kind of groundwork taking place to bring about a cease fire and peace talks between the two sides