mjw47 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Harleyman. Sorry if I offended you the other smartarse annoyed me somewhat. As you know you and I don't see eye to eye on a few things but I have the feeling that if we ever met we'd get along just fine. Disagreeing with someones point of view has never prevented me being a friend to them, and in fact it gives you something to talk about. Be boring if we all agreed about everything wouldn't it? My only problem with you is that you give the impression of being a right wing 'kill em all' America the glorious, we need more and bigger drones, bit of a nut job. Now why is it that I can see you reading that and thinking, ' What's that hippy fool going on about now? That's good solid GOP policy right there, and the world would be so much better if we could eradicate all those soft left wing commies.' The thing is your view of all Japanese being fanatic bloodthirsty Emperor worshiping killing machines strikes me as a tad over the top. I'm fully aware of their record of atrocities not just in WW2 but also in China. But I'm also aware of British atrocities in Tasmania, South Africa, Kenya and loads of other countries, but I would hesitate to brand all the population with that stigma. And lets face it Harleyman, it's not as if the land of the free and the home of the brave has always behaved in an honourable fashion is it? People are mainly decent, it's the so called 'elite' that tend to cause the problems with their insatiable greed and need for power. The naive badly educated masses get conned into spilling their blood for other peoples gain. I'd just like people to stop and think a bit before becoming fooled by all that patriotic crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Harleyman. Sorry if I offended you the other smartarse annoyed me somewhat. As you know you and I don't see eye to eye on a few things but I have the feeling that if we ever met we'd get along just fine. Disagreeing with someones point of view has never prevented me being a friend to them, and in fact it gives you something to talk about. Be boring if we all agreed about everything wouldn't it? My only problem with you is that you give the impression of being a right wing 'kill em all' America the glorious, we need more and bigger drones, bit of a nut job. Now why is it that I can see you reading that and thinking, ' What's that hippy fool going on about now? That's good solid GOP policy right there, and the world would be so much better if we could eradicate all those soft left wing commies.' The thing is your view of all Japanese being fanatic bloodthirsty Emperor worshiping killing machines strikes me as a tad over the top. I'm fully aware of their record of atrocities not just in WW2 but also in China. But I'm also aware of British atrocities in Tasmania, South Africa, Kenya and loads of other countries, but I would hesitate to brand all the population with that stigma. And lets face it Harleyman, it's not as if the land of the free and the home of the brave has always behaved in an honourable fashion is it? People are mainly decent, it's the so called 'elite' that tend to cause the problems with their insatiable greed and need for power. The naive badly educated masses get conned into spilling their blood for other peoples gain. I'd just like people to stop and think a bit before becoming fooled by all that patriotic crap. We probably would get along pretty well. We Anglo-Irish are a special breed unto ourselves. Funny you should accuse me of being far right. I havent voted republican in almost two decades. Perhaps I may have exaggerated somewhat in condemning whole populaces as being fanatics but the fact remains that no country can go to war with another country unless it has the almost full support and co-operation of the general population. Hitler certainly did and probably Tojo and his God like emperor. It's only when a country starts to lose a war that the leaders become villains in the eyes of the populace. MUssolini was one example. The Generals who plotted to kill Hitler didnt attempt that through any humanitarian feelings for the millions of Jews and others the Nazi regime was busily murdering. It was purely to stop any further destruction to Germany and perhaps even to salvage some of their careers had it succeeded and Germany could have made some kind of peace deal after Hitler's death. Soldiers who serve in armies that are victorious are always celebrated as heroes with a hero's welcome. Nothinhg like that happened after Vietnam. All who served in that war bore some kind of taint for decades afterwards. Now in the eyes of the fickle populace we're some kind of heroes after all, not that I care a hoot. I havent attended one re-union or marched in one vet's parade in all the time since then. It's a funny world ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 16:31 ---------- the Brits did well to avoid getting entangled in Vietnam. But Marcos of the Philippines played the US the best. He took them for millions over the years in exchange for pretending to be an ally when there was never more than about fifty Filipinos in Vietnam under their flag at any one time. The aid he got from the US that didn't go on his wife's shoes, he spent on oppressing his own people. Marcos wasn't that stupid. He knew that one day the Americans would leave. Whereas Vietnam and the Philippines, would always be neighbours. Whatever happened to Imelda Marcos' 2,00 pairs of shoes anyway? ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 16:34 ---------- While in the RAF I and some 30 troops were in transit from Singaore to Hong Kon, in a C130 which landed in Saigon and unloaded some supplies.We were not allowed off theA/C except the flight crew and loadmaster.As soon as the load was off loaded it was collected by troops who were easily recognised by us as Aussies and Kiwis (commonwealth troops).As far as I know only 5 GSM medals were issued for Vietnam. They werent there that long. As soon as the government in Australia changed out they went Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Yes, all ways had some sympathy for US Vietnam vets. Never lost a single battle and wound up losing the war because of public opinion back home. Whilst I broadly agreed with that public opinion, it was hardly the fault of the average grunt was it? Why they should have received any abuse is beyond me. By the way I'm not actually a 'lefty' as I hold all political ideology in just about equal contempt, and didn't have time to be a hippy as I was too busy trying to earn a living. Your right about the Anglo-Irish though, as Yeats said 'We are no Petty people.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Yes, all ways had some sympathy for US Vietnam vets. Never lost a single battle really? how about these, for starters? Battle of Dong Xoai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dong_Xoai Result Viet Cong victory Battle of Xa Cam My http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Xa_Cam_My Result Viet Cong victory Battle of Kham Duc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kham_Duc Result North Vietnamese and Viet Cong victory Battle of Ong Thanh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ong_Thanh Battle of Lang Vei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lang_Vei Result North Vietnamese victory and that is just scratching the surface. There were many more north Vietnamese victories than those. ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 20:57 ---------- Whatever happened to Imelda Marcos' 2,00 pairs of shoes anyway? I think there were many more shoes than that, but it is a good question. I do know that a lot of them were on display in a museum type building in Tacloban, Leyte (her hometown) which I visited in 2005. However seeing as Tacloban was totally devastated by one of the very worst typhoons in recorded history last November with barely a building left intact, then they could be anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 really? how about these, for starters? Battle of Dong Xoai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dong_Xoai Result Viet Cong victory Battle of Xa Cam My http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Xa_Cam_My Result Viet Cong victory Battle of Kham Duc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kham_Duc Result North Vietnamese and Viet Cong victory Battle of Ong Thanh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ong_Thanh Battle of Lang Vei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lang_Vei Result North Vietnamese victory and that is just scratching the surface. There were many more north Vietnamese victories than those. ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 20:57 ---------- [i. That's interesting, to tell the truth I never really had much interest in the Vietnam war as I considered it a ridiculous and badly thought out adventure in the first place. Just goes to show, I'm absolutely certain that I read somewhere that the US didn't lose any major battles, only minor engagements. It was years ago but obviously it stuck and having little interest I never bothered to question it. My point still stands though, I sympathize with the ordinary combatant having done their duty as they saw it and being abused by their fellow citizens. ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 21:34 ---------- Was puzzled by how I got mistaken over that, so after my last post I Googled 'How many Battles did the US lose in Vietnam' and the mystery was solved. There are loads of sites claiming that they never lost a major battle. No wonder I was misled. As I say, not being that interested I simply took it at face value, perhaps you should contact a few of them and put them right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 That's interesting, to tell the truth I never really had much interest in the Vietnam war as I considered it a ridiculous and badly thought out adventure in the first place. Just goes to show, I'm absolutely certain that I read somewhere that the US didn't lose any major battles, only minor engagements. It was years ago but obviously it stuck and having little interest I never bothered to question it. My point still stands though, I sympathize with the ordinary combatant having done their duty as they saw it and being abused by their fellow citizens. ---------- Post added 30-04-2014 at 21:34 ---------- Was puzzled by how I got mistaken over that, so after my last post I Googled 'How many Battles did the US lose in Vietnam' and the mystery was solved. There are loads of sites claiming that they never lost a major battle. No wonder I was misled. As I say, not being that interested I simply took it at face value, perhaps you should contact a few of them and put them right! I took part in the battle of Hui. It was recaptured after it had been overrun during the Tet offensive. Two close friends were killed not thirty yards from where I was standing. That's all I'm willing to say. I still from time to time have bad dreams about what I saw in a village the NVA had overrun and recently occupied but again enough said. They made a movie part of which is based on the battle of Hui called "Full metal jacket" The failure to win that war was essentially a failure to win hearts and minds, the corrupt south vietnamese government and military who were not motivated to fight. The south vietnamese grunt was more deserter or pimp than soldier and a segment in the film shows an incident bearing this out. I dont think that Amercan students yelling and shouting slogans and waving Cong flags in the streets of the cities had all that much to do with the outcome. Some of their leaders claim that it did but in their case it's more BS seeking attention and glory than anything else. Nixon's administration knew that the policies in Vietnam had failed badly, it was costing the US treasury more and more money every day and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society Program was taking a big chunk out of the national budget to boot. Nixon took the best way out, concentrate a sustained bombing campaign of the North, bring the Hanoi government to the bargaining table, cut the best deal possible then start planning to pull US troops out. I'm sure that Nixon knew that it was only a matter of time before the North would prevail over the South. It was plain to even a school kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The thing that gets to me Harleyman, is that thousands of ordinary guys who would under normal circumstances have lived an uneventful decent existence, had their lives damaged by politicians who were incapable of doing the job which they volunteered for. It always disgusts me that there are people who placed their own self interest above that of the people that they claimed to represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 T There are loads of sites claiming that they never lost a major battle. No wonder I was misled. the very same sites go on to repeat the same tired old cliche you just have in the reply above, namely that if it wasn't for the politicians on Capitol Hill/Parliament/Strasbourg etc, selling us out, then we would have won, and everything would be peachy. a cliche that is for infants only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 the very same sites go on to repeat the same tired old cliche you just have in the reply above, namely that if it wasn't for the politicians on Capitol Hill/Parliament/Strasbourg etc, selling us out, then we would have won, and everything would be peachy. a cliche that is for infants only. EH? Where did I say 'we' would have won? First of all there's no 'we' in regard to Vietnam where I'm concerned. I'm an Anglo-Irishman with dual nationality and American actions are down to them alone. Secondly my point is, and always has been, that virtually all politicians of whatever party or country are - with a few honourable exceptions - corrupt, and in it for themselves. It isn't the actions of politicians 'selling people out' by not following through with military adventures that concerns me, it's that they involve their countries in the first place. The Iraq invasion was illegal in my view and I am not alone in that conclusion. Lord Goldsmith, Blairs legal adviser and Attorney General for the UK originally wrote to him advising that any invasion would be against UN resolution 1441 and therefore illegal. He then changed his mind after pressure was brought to bear and wrote a further memo two months later saying it was lawful. At a later date Lord Bingham a former Lord Chief Justice stated that the invasion was 'a serious violation of international law and of the rule of law.' And, as usual nothing will be done about it. The real major criminals in our society are running governments, industrial corporations and banks and are above the law which they manipulate to their own advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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