Should the veil be banned in schools?

[boyfriday]

And I didn't get your question?

 

What was unclear about my post, which you quoted?

 

I interpreted it as you saying Wahhabi Muslims aren't permitted to wear burkas due to the very conservative and male dominated aspects of their belief.

[Cyclone]

Not in the least.

So...where have I not done that?

We seem to be at cross purposes, I said you'd suggested it and you seemed to think it was important to say no you hadn't, you had in fact advocated it.

A pointless splitting of hairs.

 

In the case of extreme cultural behaviour (as in, very markedly at odds with mainstream social mores), I beg to differ.

Pick a definition and tirez le premier, Monsieur l'Anglais

There is nothing neutral in the act of banning, I agree.

 

The outcome of the act is to provide a neutral envorinment, which was my point (and was plenty clear enough so please stop trying to (re-)interpret my words).

Your point is clear, but you are mistaken.

Don't mistake religious faith for social integration.

Don't mistake banning the expression of it as tolerance.

It is one factor, but infinitesimally insignificant relative to social background, education and race (yes I've said it, yes it's shameful to admit, no I make no excuse for it).

 

Riots there are fundamentally a social issue, which has existed since the mid-90s if not earlier - yet very much not a religious one.

Indeed, temporarily suppressed at school, for the last 100+ years.

And now an extension of that suppressed in public and a large source of tension amongst minorities.

 

Now, there have been burqa wearers since before France was France. There have been muslims in France since well before schooling over there was secular. And there have been more and more burqa wearers living their daily lives in France for the last few decades at least.

 

Religious issues that have cropped up in state schools over there in the past decade or so, have all been caused by veil/burqa wearers 'fighting' the centenerial secular policy in place.

Or fighting it's gradual extension into other areas of life.

Says all it needs to say: why should any exception be made for a minor, extreme, proselytist branch of islam, when mainstream catholics, protestants, jews (mostly) and others have complied with the system for decades upon decades and got on with it just fine?

 

I await your rationale with baited breath.

You want me to rationalise your strawman. Don't hold your breath for too long!

 

---------- Post added 16-09-2013 at 13:53 ----------

 

That would be a disguise so would be banned in a public place along with balaclavas, burqa's, face masks, stocking on ones heads, even this would be banned in public.

 

Are you saying that disguises should be banned? Or that they are?

[L00b]

I interpreted it as you saying Wahhabi Muslims aren't permitted to wear burkas due to the very conservative and male dominated aspects of their belief.

 

Erm...that's not quite how it was meant to be understood

 

(and 'wahhabi' in there was only used as a representative example, not meant to be exhaustive).

 

The point was that, if there is to be a case of replacing one type of "oppression" by another (the point I quoted in my reply post), then I would sooner replace the (faith-based) oppression of a woman/child by a male who forces them to wear a burqa (I am aware that not all do, far from it) with the (law-based) oppression of that male.

 

Makes sense?

[Jason Bourne]

If you ban the veil, then what will you ban next in public?

 

Short skirts?

Crop Tops?

Bare midriffs?

 

I'm very much in favour of sexy women being able to bare as much as they can get away with, so how about we have nobody dictating what people should be wearing in public?

 

It's not like the ConDemNation coalition have other pressing concerns such as the economy, is it?

[boyfriday]

You arent the one being forced to cover up with threats of physical or mental abuse if you didnt.

 

Do only burka wearing Muslim women live with the threat of physical/mental abuse? I'm afraid this problem has to be addressed in other ways rather than banning what women wear.

[Cyclone]

 

Erm...that's not quite how it was meant to be understood

 

(and 'wahhabi' in there was only used as a representative example, not meant to be exhaustive).

 

The point was that, if there is to be a case of replacing one type of "oppression" by another (the point I quoted in my reply post), then I would sooner replace the (faith-based) oppression of a woman/child by a male who forces them to wear a burqa (I am aware that not all do, far from it) with the (law-based) oppression of that male.

 

Makes sense?

 

If it were that simple then I would agree. But it clearly isn't.

 

---------- Post added 16-09-2013 at 13:58 ----------

 

Do only burka wearing Muslim women live with the threat of physical/mental abuse? I'm afraid this problem has to be addressed in other ways rather than banning what women wear.

 

+1 this post!

 

But then how can you support the idea that banning them anywhere is acceptable? Thin end of the wedge, etc...

[boyfriday]

 

Erm...that's not quite how it was meant to be understood

 

(and 'wahhabi' in there was only used as a representative example, not meant to be exhaustive).

 

The point was that, if there is to be a case of replacing one type of "oppression" by another (the point I quoted in my reply post), then I would sooner replace the (faith-based) oppression of a woman/child by a male who forces them to wear a burqa (I am aware that not all do, far from it) with the (law-based) oppression of that male.

 

Makes sense?

 

Ah! I see it now!

 

Personally I don't believe the state should interfere with what we wear, unless the garment contains slogans which are highly likely to cause a breach of the peace.

 

I've had some lively discussions with people who claim Doc Marten wearing skinheads are looking for trouble and they should be banned from having that look (weird isn't it?), I couldn't countenance that, not only because I know some perfectly nice skinheaded Doc Marten wearers through my children, but they ain't doing me any harm, so live and let live.

[janie48]

If I've no need to converse or come into contact with women wearing a burka why should I worry about what she wears in public?

 

Well that's just the whole point. If you don't wish to or have any desire to converse or communicate face to face with them you are entitled to ignore them, which presumably is what most of the women would prefer.

But the issue is about those who have to when communication is a requirement. I've had to communicate with women wearing a face veil, both through choice and at work, and its difficult to do that effectively when the face is hidden, It can be far more so then when language is a barrier in communication, because communication is a two way process and facial expressions can reveal so much about a person.

[Maxtor]

Do only burka wearing Muslim women live with the threat of physical/mental abuse?

 

thats a poor answer even for you

[L00b]

We seem to be at cross purposes, I said you'd suggested it and you seemed to think it was important to say no you hadn't, you had in fact advocated it.

Maybe so. The simple point was that no, I did not "suggest" it: I approved it loud and clear.

Your point is clear, but you are mistaken.

That is your opinion. You are unconvicing so far.

Don't mistake banning the expression of it as tolerance.

Where have I posted or even suggested that banning the burqa (or, for that matter, enforced secularism in state schools) amounted to tolerance?

And now an extension of that suppressed in public and a large source of tension amongst minorities.

Really?

 

The burqa ban is not a 'large source of tension amongst minorities', the arrests (properly-) under that law with further processing/proceedings (Court and sentence) which have occured as a result of its entry into force in 2011 can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

 

As for the Trappes riots, I need not tell you that for sections of the population, any excuse for starting a riot goes these days: whether it's resisting an ID control gone bad, or a bike thief wrapping himself around a tree on a stolen scooter when trying to evade a pursuing panda, or...

 

I keep telling you the burqua is really a very small social side issue (all things considered, notably the country's scale and population) given a very disproportionate echo in the national media, and unnecessary attention at the time of the legislation in 2011.

You want me to rationalise your strawman. Don't hold your breath for too long!

Hahaha, that's rich!

 

No worries, C, my breathing is just peachy - plenty of deep dives to my PADI record to show for it