Cameron, No dole for under 25's

[Cyclone]

You're the one who posited that "more of the same" would be used, with your question, Cyclone. I have not made any such claim.

It's not a claim, it's the basis of the plan.

Educated until 18, and then if not in work, given more education until 25. That IS more of the same.

 

Quite on the contrary, with my reply to you I suggested that education specialists would be best-placed to determine whether, indeed, "simply more of the same" would be used or "something different".

But "something different" has not been proposed has it.

 

Benefitting from my education, I am likewise able to make a prediction: it would be "something different". Logical, since the 'standard' education system has failed them by age 18. But that's conjecture, all the same.

No, their job is to set and vote a policy according to desired objectives. How to implement the policy is up to the specialists. As usual, and as with most other areas of Gvt policy.

The policy states "more education", not "something different", and to be honest this government like the last have a very poor record when it comes to listening to experts.

Why is stating that the educational system looks like it's failing amounts to 'tinkering at the edges'?

That's not what I said.

I said that the idea of providing vocational training already exists, when you suggested it as something new. And I said that the proposal as stated is just tinkering at the edges of a failing system.

 

---------- Post added 03-10-2013 at 14:53 ----------

 

So you have no intention of answering then ...

 

You're trying to make him answer a question about an opinion he's never actually expressed...

 

---------- Post added 03-10-2013 at 14:54 ----------

 

It just proves that a lot of the unemployed ARE skivers.

 

How does it prove that? Do you think that many of the people discussing the issue here are unemployed?

[tinfoilhat]

It just proves that a lot of the unemployed ARE skivers.

 

It's not that either, a lot aren't. It's the overbearing, sorry to say, left leaning types who a) cannot bring themselves to back it purely because its a Tory idea (which is completely pathetic) b) daren't push something because some people might not like learning. Others have a big deal about the 25 age limit. Who cares! There's age limits on lots of things!

 

If you just want young people either at university or flipping burgers/stacking shelves (I've done both in the past so not knocking it) vote for little ed. if you want young people with more smarts, better prospects so they might earn more or even employ others, don't vote for ed.

 

I agree that provisions need to be put in place (unlike the adult apprentiship scheme that has a few dozen takers rather than a few thousand - google it!) but for the gods sake stop making educating young people look like a bad idea.

 

Oh, and has anyone asked an under 25 unemployed person what they think? Everyone on here is retired or has a job!

[Cyclone]

It's an entirely arbitrary age limit, it appears to take no regard for circumstances and it seems to make an assumption that education having failed these people for 13 years, giving them a bit more of it will somehow magically transform their plight.

 

In short it's a policy that makes no sense, but will result in a short term reduction in the recorded number of unemployed.

[L00b]

It's not a claim, it's the basis of the plan.

Educated until 18, and then if not in work, given more education until 25. That IS more of the same.

But "something different" has not been proposed has it.

The policy states "more education", not "something different", and to be honest this government like the last have a very poor record when it comes to listening to experts.

Hang on a minute here.

 

All we know of 'the plan' for now, is that it advocates more education in the absence of a professional activity.

 

Not whether it's the same or a different form of education. That is your artificial contention (that it will be the same). So far as I'm concerned, it will likely be both, but I don't know that for sure and I will not second-guess specialists. But to get back to your post: nothing (tangible/in detail)has been proposed, is the point.

 

And, lest we forget, our semi-private exhange here only related to illiterates failed by the standard educational system (up to 18 ); not all unemployed in the 18-25 range concerned by 'the plan' (many of whom, I expect, are actually post-degree in this day and age already...and yes, more education is possible for them too).

That's not what I said.

I said that the idea of providing vocational training already exists, when you suggested it as something new.

I'm looking at your post #139 and that's exactly what you said

 

Anyway, I did not "suggest" that vocational training was something new (hence the mention of long-existing HNCs/HNDs), I posted that they were expensive, and that accessibility to them should be improved, as one of the possible ways of providing "more education".

And I said that the proposal as stated is just tinkering at the edges of a failing system.

Not sure I understand why and how you quoted my post then, Cyclone.

 

In the meantime, please stop inferring secondary meaning and suggestions in my posts, as per your habit. We've already had words about that not so long ago.

[Mecky]

You're trying to make him answer a question about an opinion he's never actually expressed...

 

He seemed fit to challenge my opinion by not agree with it. Therefore he is of a different opinion and since the options on the table are from the Conservatives and Labour, and I said the Labour initiative would be better, but not it's without its problems IMO, he obviously thinks the Conservative option is better. He won't say why he thinks that and has no intention to. He is just trying to grind a troll, which ably demonstrates what type of person he really is.

[poppet2]

Yet a couple of years ago the Tories scraped the EMA grant of a lesser amount of £30.00 a week for those up to 19 years old.

[Xt500]

I'm staggered that an idea that educates people who don't have a job (and therefore no skills or not current skills) is getting panned. There are kids in developing countries who will cross mine fields to learn and folk are getting all mardy that under 25s will get PAID to be educated if not in work. Failing that they won't do jobs the foreigners will cross continents for.

 

No wonder this country is going down the bog. In fact, if this forum is anything to go by, we're already there.

 

The difference is,people here cant afford to live on minimum wages.Foriegners who mostly have no interest in buying houses and living a decent life here can.Also workers from abroad are having many things susidised including getting here transport to work layed on and even their wages subsidised.Them perks are not available to British workers,neither is cheap housing at home where many already have their mortgages.

The bulgarians earn an average of about 150 euro a month,coming here and working for peanuts is going to be like winning the lottery and they will be coming by the ship load.

Companies are the ones who really need to take some responsibily and start employing their own at half decent wages but there is little incentive to do that when foriegn workers are cheaper.

The more power the big companies get the worse the situation.

 

I feel for the young people in this country,they not only have to try and get through life with thier hands tied behind their backs but at the same time tarnished with all sorts of crap from idiots who watch the BBC too much!

[Anna B]

"Fairly patronising"? So, not "incredibly patronising" any more?

 

It's only patronising if I hold most, if not all, unemployed as illiterates. That is not the case at all.

 

Had you bothered to read the rest of my post, rather than jump to conclusions, you would have been able to see a scale for the issue, which I know to be reasonably accurate for one specific country, of 20%. For an entire class of age, it's a lot of people. And it is a fair assumption that they are going to be disproportionately represented amongst the unemployed. That makes it "a great many". But not all, far from it.

 

Portuguese and Spanish = all of South America. To begin with.

Mandarin = most of South East Asia

Russian = Russia and most ex-USSR states, some central African countries

French = France, Monaco, Switzerland, Eastern Canada, a sizeable portion of Africa (top to bottom), a sizeable portion of the Carribbean, many countries about the Indian Ocean, many nation-islands in the Pacific

 

That's off the cuff, I could go on/in further details.

 

...Maybe the extra learning should be about broadening minds instead. There is clearly a widespread need. That's meant to be patronising, btw.

 

I was trying to be polite, something which I realise you have trouble with.

[avidcameron]

It's an entirely arbitrary age limit, it appears to take no regard for circumstances and it seems to make an assumption that education having failed these people for 13 years, giving them a bit more of it will somehow magically transform their plight.

 

In short it's a policy that makes no sense, but will result in a short term reduction in the recorded number of unemployed.

 

It would be more sensible to educate these people while they are at school rather than wait until their failings have been set in stone.It seems invidious to charge students £9000 pa to be educated and yet allow poor achievers to have free provision.The policy was made on the back of a condom packet.

[poppet2]

It would be more sensible to educate these people while they are at school rather than wait until their failings have been set in stone.It seems invidious to charge students £9000 pa to be educated and yet allow poor achievers to have free provision.The policy was made on the back of a condom packet.

 

As have so many of Cameron's policies. How much will it cost to employ more teachers, find more place for these students, find apprenticeship places etc.

They aren't any apprenticeship places NOW.

Once all this training has been done can he guarantee the jobs will be waiting for them?