boyfriday Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 digest this my 2 granddaughters were told by there school they had to go on atrip to a mosque and there father objected he was labelled racsist Who labelled him a 'racist'? when he asked how many muslim schoolchildren visited Christian churches nobody could answer How many non Muslim children visited Christian churches? also at this school lessons on the Koran are given are lessons in Christianity given to muslim children?-no they are not . As far as Im aware parents can remove their children from RE lessons, this was the case even when I was at school and Jehovah's Witnesses (Christians) didn't attend any Christian ceremony or celebration. As per my first post it needs equal treatment from booth parties and it will never happen Maybe your grand daughters should have been allowed to visit the mosque then if non participation is your issue? ---------- Post added 27-11-2013 at 17:05 ---------- No it doesnt. It does in parts of the EU now in response to exactly what I described. Which demonstrates my earlier point-laws being changed to disadvantage Muslims, rather than the other way round as is often claimed. However Schools are entitled to enforce their own dress policy and if that means no beards, these pupils should conform or be excluded. I agree, as I said earlier..unless there are very genuine reasons for something happening on religious grounds, which this doesn't appear to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeX Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I used to hear this reasoning applied to Jamaicans in the 70's that due to our extraordinary powers of breeding (another fallacy) we'd turn the UK black within 3 generations. The irony being that through integration, it's actually black British faces getting paler and disappearing. . I remember reading some time ago that the number of people from the west Indies that were leaving the UK to return home had increased so much it out stripped the numbers coming to the UK. Personally I feel west indians can be some of the most patriotic people I have met. Their reverance for the UK out strips that of those who were born here in some cases. But sadly I do not see this kind of integration by Muslims coming to the UK or even those born here. I see it in other religious groups, Hindus probably being the next largest group, but Muslims I don't. They seem to want to isolate themselves from the community at large, refusing to join in with practices, traditions and even some of our laws. Their special Sharia courts are case and point of a society that does not want to be seen (at the very least) to be integrating with the country and this is why we see so much anti-muslim feeling in the UK. You don't see the same level of mistrust for sikhism or hinduism as you do for Islam. You have to ask yourself the question of why? ---------- Post added 27-11-2013 at 17:13 ---------- Which demonstrates my earlier point-laws being changed to disadvantage Muslims, rather than the other way round as is often claimed. How does this disadvantage Muslims? No law has been passed to outlaw religious dress, just that which is deemed to be oppressive to women. This restriction was called for by the populations of these countries. What is wrong with that? Muslims are entitled to carry out which ever religious practices they like within their own homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I remember reading some time ago that the number of people from the west Indies that were leaving the UK to return home had increased so much it out stripped the numbers coming to the UK. That was always the intention, they came here to work, earn money then go 'back a yard' when they retired..however they leave their progeny here, we're British you see as are our children Personally I feel west indians can be some of the most patriotic people I have met. Their reverance for the UK out strips that of those who were born here in some cases. I agree completely Wex, my grandparents were surprised no one celebrated Empire Day when they arrived here, however my point is you're reflecting on your experiences, when blacks arrived here the prophecies regarding them and their likely integration weren't positive...I know you're only a baby but you'll know of Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech, it was directed at us good ol Colonials! How does this disadvantage Muslims? No law has been passed to outlaw religious dress, just that which is deemed to be oppressive to women. This restriction was called for by the populations of these countries. What is wrong with that? Muslims are entitled to carry out which ever religious practices they like within their own homes. So one form of 'oppression' was replaced with another? What about the women who wore a burka by their own free will? What right does the state have to tell people they're being oppressed? How about treating the disease of oppression (men) rather than telling women what they can't or can wear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 digest this my 2 granddaughters were told by there school they had to go on atrip to a mosque and there father objected he was labelled racsist when he asked how many muslim schoolchildren visited Christian churches nobody could answer also at this school lessons on the Koran are given are lessons in Christianity given to muslim children?-no they are not .As per my first post it needs equal treatment from booth parties and it will never happen what was your (and your son's) problem with your grandchildren being given a well-rounded religious education? what is actually wrong with being taught "Christians believe this...""Muslims believe this..." Jews believe this..." Hindus believe this... Sikhs believe this... Buddhists believe this... Pagans believe this and Athiests believe this..." How is being taught a balanced view of world faiths wrong? *facepalms* It's far better than the Religious Education classes I had to put up with, when I was at school. Endless copying out into our books stories from the bible... No comparative religion, nothing about other faiths... Surely to goodness, if the child attends broad lessons informing them of all faiths and atheism, then the child can objectively look at those religions and decide for himself, which religion is or is not true, or even whether he actually wants to follow any religion. An Analogy for you... If a parent serves a child cheese on toast, for every meal, breakfast, lunch and tea, how will that child ever have the chance to decide whether s/he likes jacket potato with beans, for example, or Roast beef and Yorkshire pud, or chicken chow mein? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 If a parent serves a child cheese on toast, for every meal, breakfast, lunch and tea, how will that child ever have the chance to decide whether s/he likes jacket potato with beans, for example, or Roast beef and Yorkshire pud, or chicken chow mein? PT, how remiss..you forgot the Subway bacon sandwich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I think there is a simple answer to all the debate about muslims in England .Question?which muslim country could you go to and build a Christian church or school?or let your 16 year old daughter walk down the street in a mini-skirt with her mid-driff showing?answers on amatchstick head please .If people want a tolerant attitude it should be a 2 way street not a one sided argument If you want racial/religious the same attitude is needed both ways Could you clarify your point please? It's a bit of a non sequitur, isn't it, BF? "...debate about Muslims in England..." "which muslim country could you..." If we are talking about Muslims in England, what has that to do with the building Christian Churches in another land...(etc)? (At least that's the point I think deniarosa is trying to make, trying to interpret what they wrote. it's not very clearly set out) ---------- Post added 27-11-2013 at 17:39 ---------- PT, how remiss..you forgot the Subway bacon sandwich *considers herself suitably chastened* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 It's a bit of a non sequitur, isn't it, BF? "...debate about Muslims in England..." "which muslim country could you..." If we are talking about Muslims in England, what has that to do with the building Christian Churches in another land...(etc)? (At least that's the point I think deniarosa is trying to make, trying to interpret what they wrote. it's not very clearly set out) Quite true, I've ground my teeth down to stumps ruminating his point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressida Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Deniarosa maybe saying 'what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander' or if the Christian schoolchildren were asked to visit a mosque then the Muslim schoolchildren should be asked to visit a church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 If the school has had this policy for some time (which I suspect is the case) and these pupils want to challenge it, thats their right, but the school has the right to enforce its own policies. I bet this ban on beards has been in force for many years and probably well before the first muslim stepped inside the school. In fact its not a requirement for these boys to have a beard as the rule is all mature Muslims need to have a beard. These boys are not mature and so can shave it off. The religious angle is being used again to get what someone wants and if you speak out against it, they and others use the "r" word. my bold... If they are past the age of puberty, and are capable of growing a beard, then they are considered "Mature". It's the same concept as in Judasim:- in Judaism, the boy who has gone through his Bar Mitzvah is no longer a boy, he has become a man, and is part of the congregation and has the rights and responsibilities incumbent upon him. (I'm sure fellow member "Jewboy" could confirm this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeX Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I agree completely Wex, my grandparents were surprised no one celebrated Empire Day when they arrived here, however my point is you're reflecting on your experiences, when blacks arrived here the prophecies regarding them and their likely integration weren't positive...I know you're only a baby but you'll know of Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech, it was directed at us good ol Colonials! Thankfully I'm not old enough to have experienced that and it shocks me how many of that generation were treated. But it is also testimony to their tolerance that they stayed and integrated so well as to be now part of the very fabric of this nation. So one form of 'oppression' was replaced with another? What about the women who wore a burka by their own free will? What right does the state have to tell people they're being oppressed? How about treating the disease of oppression (men) rather than telling women what they can't or can wear? I dont agree its "oppression" as its neither cruel or unjust. ---------- Post added 27-11-2013 at 17:50 ---------- my bold... If they are past the age of puberty, and are capable of growing a beard, then they are considered "Mature". It's the same concept as in Judasim:- in Judaism, the boy who has gone through his Bar Mitzvah is no longer a boy, he has become a man, and is part of the congregation and has the rights and responsibilities incumbent upon him. (I'm sure fellow member "Jewboy" could confirm this). Im sorry but you are not an adult in the UK until you are 18. That is the UK law and you are again highlighting how you superseded the laws of the UK with your own. This is exactly the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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