Easier visas for Chinese immigrants now.

[boyfriday]

You are referring there to the colonial exploits of the British hundreds of year ago... not really relevant now!

That's rather disingenuous fella! The point I'm making is that cultural change isn't necessarily a bad thing and is an intrinsic part of the development of nations. The UK I live in now is much different from the one I grew up in and not all those changes are bad.

 

I do not believe for one second that most immigrants are self sufficient.

Is that because you don't want to believe it? How do you know who's self sufficient from who isn't just by looking at them?

Most may well work but that doesn't equate to a net positive financial contribution - think child benefit, tax credits, housing benefits, council tax benefits, free education, free NHS etc.

Make your eyes bleed (it's a weighty tome) with this document on the economic impact of immigration on the UK commissioned by the House of Lords in 2008, it concludes that the exchequer benefits positively from immigration and even goes into the detail of the socio-economic groups that immigrants form part of.

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf

In this country (roughly speaking) the top fifth of earners pay more in then they get out. The second to top fifth even themselves out. The bottom three fifths make a net negative contribution i.e. are subsidised by the top fifth.

Unless you're making assumptions about the background of immigrants what conclusions can you draw without knowing what immigrants earn (see report above )

Only a tiny percentage of immigrants will fall into the top fifth of earners and therefore the vast majority do not make a net positive contribution.

Well if you base your conclusions on false assumptions they'll tell you whatever you want..I read an article last week that said over a thrid of hospital consultants in the NHS are immigrants, they'll on average be earning way in excess of £150k. Anyway, I'll not distract you, have a read of the report I linked to, it provides fact rather than innuendo about the background of immigrants.

[blake]

Yes my mistake but either way visitors or

Immigrants we should welcome them with open arms!

 

you obviously have no idea of the bad reputation, that Chinese tourists have. They make Brits in Euro look like saints.

 

the situation is so bad, that the Chinese issued a hilarious booklet to advise their tourists not to misbehave.

 

at the risk of hijacking the thread I'm copying and pasting it here.

 

China issues guidebook on 'civilised tourism'

 

Communist Party tourism chiefs have told Chinese globetrotters they must urgently cut back on limp hand-shakes, public displays of nose-picking, swimming pool-soiling and the discussion of pork in a desperate bid to improve the country’s overseas image.

 

the stern but ultimately unenforceable edicts appeared in a 64-page “Guidebook for Civilised Tourism” that was issued on Tuesday to coincide with the start of a week-long public holiday commemorating the 1949 Communist take-over.

 

 

 

China’s economic boom has triggered an international scramble to attract growing hordes of cash-flush tourists. The United Nations World Tourism Organisation says an army of 83 million Chinese tourists spent nearly £63 billion overseas in 2012.

 

 

 

But the poor behaviour of many first-time travellers has also spawned a global image problem, senior Communist Party leaders fear.

 

 

 

In May, Beijing approved new legislation designed to improve the country’s “national image” and Wang Yang, a top leader, warned that vulgar and impetuous tourists had “damaged the image of Chinese people and caused vicious impact” on the country’s reputation.

 

 

 

The new etiquette manual – which is punctuated with cartoons of naughty and apparently non-Chinese tourists - represents the most comprehensive and at times surreal in a series of recent diktats aimed at improving the “quality” of the tourists Beijing exports to the world.

 

 

 

The guidelines range from the commonsensical – “do not curse locals” – to the bizarre - "don't leave footprints on the toilet seat" and “[when in] Scotland, don't buy stones as souvenirs.”

 

 

 

Off the menu, for Chinese tourists, are strong-arming locals into taking their photograph, urinating or spitting in public pools, drying hanker-chiefs on lampshades and using fingers to excavate foreign bodies from noses and mouths.

 

 

 

Nasal hair should be kept properly trimmed at all times, the National Tourism Administration suggests, while stainless steel cutlery, pillows and airplane life jackets should not be treated as take-away gifts.

 

 

 

“If a dangerous situation arises then someone else will be left without a lifejacket,” the guidebook warns.

 

 

 

The book also offers country-specific tips for Chinese travellers who have already booked their flights.

 

 

 

In Spain, women should always wear earrings, while in Japan they must avoid fiddling with their hair at all costs.

 

 

 

Neither sex should click their fingers at Germans (“Finger clicking is for dogs”) while in France, chrysanthemums and yellow flowers must never be given to those who invite you to their homes.

 

 

 

Advice is offered on visiting Islamic countries – “Don't talk about pork”; Thailand – “Don’t talk about the Royal family. Don’t point at things with your toe”; Algeria – “When you shake hands with others, it must be firm”; India – “Don’t touch other people’s heads”; and Iran – “You must not comment on babies’ eyes.”

 

 

 

Hungarians, the guide points out, do not appreciate you smashing their mirrors while British citizens will find questions about their movements or stomachs utterly impertinent. “When you greet others [in the UK], don't say “Where are you going?” or “Have you eaten?” like you do back home,” the guide instructs. “It will be seen as rude.”

 

 

 

Even when speaking their own language, Chinese tourists must be cautious, the manual insists. “More and more foreigners can speak Chinese. Don't comment on, belittle or even curse locals while outsiders are present.”

 

 

 

The new guidelines underline a growing consensus in China that while not all tourists can be sent to finishing school, something has to be done to stem a recent slew of scandals involving Chinese abroad.

 

 

 

In one of the highest profile cases a Chinese teenager was excoriated by his fellow countrymen after he was caught inscribing the words, “Ding Jinhao was here” onto a 3,500-year-old temple in Egypt.

 

 

 

In a recent article Hong Kong’s South Morning Post newspaper probed why Chinese tourists were so often seen as “pushy, loud, impolite, unruly” by their foreign hosts.

 

 

 

“Middle-aged or older tourists who have been deprived of or received little education during China's politically tumultuous times tend to act more unruly,” the newspaper said. “Their knowledge of the destination country and its culture is often at best outdated or non-existent.”

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph...ed-tourism.html

[melthebell]

And how do you propose to remove chinas wealth china owns half the world now anyway! The USA are in debt to them and so are Europe ! They are cultivating and improving Africa so a few human rights issues pale into insignificance ! So they must be doing something right?? The sleeping dragon has woken!

 

so Islamic countries are scum because of things such as women wearing a Burka or getting locked up for kissing a man in public, but China's appalling human rights record is ok? I smell double standards

 

hypocrite

[Daid]

So you can't then? All debt is relative to a countries size and china has far less than we do in the west !

 

What's the point of me quoting from links when they're available for all to read. I just don't see China's future as rosy as you do. Sure we can trade with them and they with us, that's great but I don't believe it's as secure as you seem to think it is.

 

That's my view of the situation based on what i've read.

[Zamo]

That's rather disingenuous fella! The point I'm making is that cultural change isn't necessarily a bad thing and is an intrinsic part of the development of nations. The UK I live in now is much different from the one I grew up in and not all those changes are bad.

 

The British developed the countries they colonised because they were more advanced - which is why they were able to take over in the first place despite being such a small nation. The immigrants to this country are not from a significantly advanced culture - quite the opposite in some cases - and aren't going to have the same sort of impact.

 

Is that because you don't want to believe it? How do you know who's self sufficient from who isn't just by looking at them?

 

Even if immigrants to the UK had the same mix of low (3/5ths), middling (1/5th) and high (1/5th) earners as the UK itself, then it would be true to say that the vast majority do not make a net positive contribution.

 

Make your eyes bleed (it's a weighty tome) with this document on the economic impact of immigration on the UK commissioned by the House of Lords in 2008, it concludes that the exchequer benefits positively from immigration and even goes into the detail of the socio-economic groups that immigrants form part of.

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf

 

I could send you alternative calculations (just as boring) that show a net negative contribution - it all depends on what you want to include.

 

Unless you're making assumptions about the background of immigrants what conclusions can you draw without knowing what immigrants earn (see report above )

 

Yes, I'm make some assumptions but is that wrong? Is it not reasonable to assume that the majority of immigrants will fall into the bottom 3/5th of earners in this country? Why would they be coming here if they were already wealthier and more successful than the majoirty of British people?

 

Well if you base your conclusions on false assumptions they'll tell you whatever you want..I read an article last week that said over a thrid of hospital consultants in the NHS are immigrants, they'll on average be earning way in excess of £150k. Anyway, I'll not distract you, have a read of the report I linked to, it provides fact rather than innuendo about the background of immigrants.

 

Yes, and this is my point. There are some very desireable immigrants who make a positive contribution and even some millionnaires and billionaires too. However, the contribution they make is diminished by the net negative contribution of the majoirty of immigrants. If we were more choosy about who we let in then there would be a massive benefit instead of a questionable one (depending on whose calculations you want to use).

[boyfriday]

The British developed the countries they colonised because they were more advanced - which is why they were able to take over in the first place despite being such a small nation.

Developed through consensus?

 

The immigrants to this country are not from a significantly advanced culture - quite the opposite in some cases - and aren't going to have the same sort of impact.

I can think of a myriad of positive developments to UK culture which are directly attributable to foreigners, can't you?

 

Even if immigrants to the UK had the same mix of low (3/5ths), middling (1/5th) and high (1/5th) earners as the UK itself, then it would be true to say that the vast majority do not make a net positive contribution.

Did you read the research I linked to?

 

I could send you alternative calculations (just as boring) that show a net negative contribution - it all depends on what you want to include.

Please do, at least I volunteered data rather than relying on assumptions.

Yes, I'm make some assumptions but is that wrong?

NOt if you want your grievance to be based entirely on xenophobia, which of course you're perfectly entitled to do.

Is it not reasonable to assume that the majority of immigrants will fall into the bottom 3/5th of earners in this country?

It is if it isn't true and you're using it to justify your position.

Why would they be coming here if they were already wealthier and more successful than the majoirty of British people?

Presumably to improve the quality of life, just as British people emigrating abroad do. Ironically, many of the immigrants who come to the UK are the Chinese you were celebrating earlier.

 

Yes, and this is my point. There are some very desireable immigrants who make a positive contribution and even some millionnaires and billionaires too. However, the contribution they make is diminished by the net negative contribution of the majoirty of immigrants. If we were more choosy about who we let in then there would be a massive benefit instead of a questionable one (depending on whose calculations you want to use).

 

The benefits will always be 'questionable' to people who are simply anti immigrant..the observations on this thread about the Chinese demonstrate that...they're alright until they start causing problems which inevitably they will do in some peoples eyes.

[Zamo]

Developed through consensus?

 

Don't suppose.

 

I can think of a myriad of positive developments to UK culture which are directly attributable to foreigners, can't you?

 

I can think of some positives and some negatives. The trick is for the positives to outweigh the negatives and a financial positive carrys a lot of weight.

 

Did you read the research I linked to?

 

You think I'm a masocist?

 

Please do, at least I volunteered data rather than relying on assumptions.

 

You're a masocist... here

 

NOt if you want your grievance to be based entirely on xenophobia, which of course you're perfectly entitled to do.

 

There are two main reasons for people emmigrating - it will be financial beneficial or for the weather. People don't come here for the weather and it isn't xenophobic to say so without commission a report to tell us the bleeding obvious!

 

Presumably to improve the quality of life, just as British people emigrating abroad do. Ironically, many of the immigrants who come to the UK are the Chinese you were celebrating earlier.

 

Indeed. And I have no problem with that providing it improves our quality of life too i.e. makes the nation richer without incurring too many cultural differences to overcome.

 

The benefits will always be 'questionable' to people who are simply anti immigrant..the observations on this thread about the Chinese demonstrate that...they're alright until they start causing problems which inevitably they will do in some peoples eyes.

 

As I've said, I am not anti immigration. I am anti immigration where there is nothing in it for us too.

[boyfriday]

I can think of some positives and some negatives. The trick is for the positives to outweigh the negatives

And I think they do, immigrants have enriched the British way of life for centuries AND brought many challenging problems, but on balance I think the outcome is positive for Britain.

You think I'm a masocist?

I had you down as a skim reader

 

You're a masocist... here

I'll skim it, with needles in my eyes

 

There are two main reasons for people emmigrating - it will be financial beneficial or for the weather. People don't come here for the weather and it isn't xenophobic to say so without commission a report to tell us the bleeding obvious!

Two reasons? There are hundreds of reasons, we're all different and motivated by different things. West Indians came here in droves during the 50's to work, leaving their families behind, there were no benefits for foreigners then and they were still detested by many. They fully intended to return their country of origin once they'd retired but most stayed..and the weather's just a bit better in the Caribbean than it is here and the cost of living a lot less.

 

Indeed. And I have no problem with that providing it improves our quality of life too i.e. makes the nation richer without incurring too many cultural differences to overcome.

You're employing a linear argument, not all immigrants enrich the country all of the time or indeed do they denigrate it all of the time either.

 

I'm sure on any given day you might find a Chinese millionaire doing something distasteful (don't dwell on it) and on another an impoverished Slovakian doing something you'd regard admirably.

 

As I've said, I am not anti immigration. I am anti immigration where there is nothing in it for us too.

 

I take your point, but the person who approved Mo Farah's asylum application probably didn't see what an asset a Muslim from Somalia was going to be to this country.

[spilldig]

That's good news this morning that visas will be easier to obtain by Chinese visitors! Good for the uk and its struggling economy the chinese will be able ro spend their dollars here instead of europ.Another upside to this is a better quality of immigrant who respects this country and it's cultures many could learn a lot from the Chinese !

It,s very good news, but I would also have liked Cameron to have had a go at India to simplify their visas for Britons.

[AdamSmith]

you obviously have no idea of the bad reputation, that Chinese tourists have. They make Brits in Euro look like saints.

 

the situation is so bad, that the Chinese issued a hilarious booklet to advise their tourists not to misbehave.

 

at the risk of hijacking the thread I'm copying and pasting it here.

 

China issues guidebook on 'civilised tourism'

 

Communist Party tourism chiefs have told Chinese globetrotters they must urgently cut back on limp hand-shakes, public displays of nose-picking, swimming pool-soiling and the discussion of pork in a desperate bid to improve the country’s overseas image.

 

the stern but ultimately unenforceable edicts appeared in a 64-page “Guidebook for Civilised Tourism” that was issued on Tuesday to coincide with the start of a week-long public holiday commemorating the 1949 Communist take-over.

 

 

 

China’s economic boom has triggered an international scramble to attract growing hordes of cash-flush tourists. The United Nations World Tourism Organisation says an army of 83 million Chinese tourists spent nearly £63 billion overseas in 2012.

 

 

 

But the poor behaviour of many first-time travellers has also spawned a global image problem, senior Communist Party leaders fear.

 

 

 

In May, Beijing approved new legislation designed to improve the country’s “national image” and Wang Yang, a top leader, warned that vulgar and impetuous tourists had “damaged the image of Chinese people and caused vicious impact” on the country’s reputation.

 

 

 

The new etiquette manual – which is punctuated with cartoons of naughty and apparently non-Chinese tourists - represents the most comprehensive and at times surreal in a series of recent diktats aimed at improving the “quality” of the tourists Beijing exports to the world.

 

 

 

The guidelines range from the commonsensical – “do not curse locals” – to the bizarre - "don't leave footprints on the toilet seat" and “[when in] Scotland, don't buy stones as souvenirs.”

 

 

 

Off the menu, for Chinese tourists, are strong-arming locals into taking their photograph, urinating or spitting in public pools, drying hanker-chiefs on lampshades and using fingers to excavate foreign bodies from noses and mouths.

 

 

 

Nasal hair should be kept properly trimmed at all times, the National Tourism Administration suggests, while stainless steel cutlery, pillows and airplane life jackets should not be treated as take-away gifts.

 

 

 

“If a dangerous situation arises then someone else will be left without a lifejacket,” the guidebook warns.

 

 

 

The book also offers country-specific tips for Chinese travellers who have already booked their flights.

 

 

 

In Spain, women should always wear earrings, while in Japan they must avoid fiddling with their hair at all costs.

 

 

 

Neither sex should click their fingers at Germans (“Finger clicking is for dogs”) while in France, chrysanthemums and yellow flowers must never be given to those who invite you to their homes.

 

 

 

Advice is offered on visiting Islamic countries – “Don't talk about pork”; Thailand – “Don’t talk about the Royal family. Don’t point at things with your toe”; Algeria – “When you shake hands with others, it must be firm”; India – “Don’t touch other people’s heads”; and Iran – “You must not comment on babies’ eyes.”

 

 

 

Hungarians, the guide points out, do not appreciate you smashing their mirrors while British citizens will find questions about their movements or stomachs utterly impertinent. “When you greet others [in the UK], don't say “Where are you going?” or “Have you eaten?” like you do back home,” the guide instructs. “It will be seen as rude.”

 

 

 

Even when speaking their own language, Chinese tourists must be cautious, the manual insists. “More and more foreigners can speak Chinese. Don't comment on, belittle or even curse locals while outsiders are present.”

 

 

 

The new guidelines underline a growing consensus in China that while not all tourists can be sent to finishing school, something has to be done to stem a recent slew of scandals involving Chinese abroad.

 

 

 

In one of the highest profile cases a Chinese teenager was excoriated by his fellow countrymen after he was caught inscribing the words, “Ding Jinhao was here” onto a 3,500-year-old temple in Egypt.

 

 

 

In a recent article Hong Kong’s South Morning Post newspaper probed why Chinese tourists were so often seen as “pushy, loud, impolite, unruly” by their foreign hosts.

 

 

 

“Middle-aged or older tourists who have been deprived of or received little education during China's politically tumultuous times tend to act more unruly,” the newspaper said. “Their knowledge of the destination country and its culture is often at best outdated or non-existent.”

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph...ed-tourism.html

 

:hihi: very good i guess that was written by a chinese government office?? very tongue in cheek although i agree about the spitting and hawking it up in public:gag: but that is the older generation the new young generation are far more worldly wise??

 

---------- Post added 14-10-2013 at 16:38 ----------

 

so Islamic countries are scum because of things such as women wearing a Burka or getting locked up for kissing a man in public, but China's appalling human rights record is ok? I smell double standards

 

hypocrite

 

who mentioned islamic countries???? or anything relating to them?? not me? ha double standards! are you and Halibut upset that this thread wasnt including your pet subjects?? Halibut has gone i see now he nothing to whine about! Chinas human rights record is certainly no worse than many other countries including islamic ones:roll:

 

---------- Post added 14-10-2013 at 16:41 ----------

 

It,s very good news, but I would also have liked Cameron to have had a go at India to simplify their visas for Britons.

 

agreed and visa versa, there will be a strong challenge from india soon economically almost to rival china.