British muslims warned

[Plain Talker]

I know but you posted Islam is Mumbo Jumbo, wouldn't like to be in your shoes.

 

Boyfriday has the right to choose to follow whatever religion he wishes, or none, and it's no-ones right except his to dictate which religion, or no religion. this applies to everyone.

 

He has the right to hold the belief that religion is mumbo jumbo. Just the same as my Hindu friends have the right to believe in the Hindu religion, my Jewish friends have the right to be Jews, my Christian friends have the right to be Christians, and my atheist friends have the right to disbelieve in a deity.

 

And the same with vegetarianism... I don't eat meat. I don't, however, deny others the right to eat and enjoy meat. I don't say "I don't eat meat, therefore you cannot eat meat either."

[ronthenekred]

I can't believe it I find myself agreeing with you, are you feeling alright?

 

I'm fine, you on the other hand are agreeing with me so therefore it should be me asking the question.

[Zamo]

Boyfriday has the right to choose to follow whatever religion he wishes, or none, and it's no-ones right except his to dictate which religion, or no religion. this applies to everyone.

 

He has the right to hold the belief that religion is mumbo jumbo. Just the same as my Hindu friends have the right to believe in the Hindu religion, my Jewish friends have the right to be Jews, my Christian friends have the right to be Christians, and my atheist friends have the right to disbelieve in a deity.

 

And the same with vegetarianism... I don't eat meat. I don't, however, deny others the right to eat and enjoy meat. I don't say "I don't eat meat, therefore you cannot eat meat either."

 

The fact that you are tolerant does not mean everyone who shares your beliefs thinks the same way and there is no problem.

 

Your vegetarian analogy is interesting. When was the last time vegetarians set off a bomb because of their beliefs? When was the last time a vegetarian movement took over the running of a country and imposed their will on everyone and murdered anyone who didn't comply?

 

The fact is that some beliefs produce more radical and dangerous followers and Islam is unquestionable one of them. If the British Muslim community want acceptance and tolerance from non-Muslims then they not only need to be seen tackling the extremists within their ranks but also be seen to be winning.

[Plain Talker]

The fact that you are tolerant does not mean everyone who shares your beliefs thinks the same way and there is no problem.

 

Your vegetarian analogy is interesting. When was the last time vegetarians set off a bomb because of their beliefs? When was the last time a vegetarian movement took over the running of a country and imposed their will on everyone and murdered anyone who didn't comply?

 

The fact is that some beliefs produce more radical and dangerous followers and Islam is unquestionable one of them. If the British Muslim community want acceptance and tolerance from non-Muslims then they not only need to be seen tackling the extremists within their ranks but also be seen to be winning.

 

the animal liberationists (veggies!) were/are quite vociferous about Huntingdon life sciences, if I recall correctly. I seem to remember a pipe bomb attack on the owners, or one of the scientists working there.

[Zamo]

the animal liberationists (veggies!) were/are quite vociferous about Huntingdon life sciences, if I recall correctly. I seem to remember a pipe bomb attack on the owners, or one of the scientists working there.

 

So you think radical vegetarianism is as much a threat as radical Islam?

 

Just remind us all which countries have succumb to vegetarian fundamentalists who oppress the people and kill those who do not comply with their draconian laws?

[melthebell]

So you think radical vegetarianism is as much a threat as radical Islam?

 

Just remind us all which countries have succumb to vegetarian fundamentalists who oppress the people and kill those who do not comply with their draconian laws?

as usual youre trying to muddy the waters, PTs point is most muslims DONT bomb others, and let people believe what they want

its the same arguement going round in circles, you use extremists as a lever for your hatred of islam full stop

Im vegetarian but like PT i dont stop you from eating meat, nor do i hate you for it, its my choice, my belief, similerly why dont you hate islamic extremists but just let those that generally follow islam get on with their lives, their beliefs? instead of some big hooha about islam in general where youre trying to impose YOUR beliefs on others and funnily enough opressing them wanting to bring in laws such as banning the burka?

[Zamo]

as usual youre trying to muddy the waters, PTs point is most muslims DONT bomb others, and let people believe what they want

its the same arguement going round in circles, you use extremists as a lever for your hatred of islam full stop

Im vegetarian but like PT i dont stop you from eating meat, nor do i hate you for it, its my choice, my belief, similerly why dont you hate islamic extremists but just let those that generally follow islam get on with their lives, their beliefs? instead of some big hooha about islam in general where youre trying to impose YOUR beliefs on others and funnily enough opressing them wanting to bring in laws such as banning the burka?

 

It is not me muddying the waters. Examples of individual Muslims being tolerant is not evidence that there is no problem! Your argument reminds me of when people use to say there was no problem with smoking because their granddad smoked like a chimney and lived to 93!

 

There is no separating the extremists from the wider Muslim community. The extremists are from that communiy, recruit from it and are hidden by it. It is the wider Muslim community from which they can draw strength... especially if they can get better organised for a sustained campaign of terror, which would bring a backlash, tit-for-tat reprisals, esculation, entrenchment and more Muslim youth flocking to the cause.

 

What we need to avoid is a situation like in 1985 when UEFA banned all English clubs from European competition because they were sick of the violence that followed them (the Heysel tragedy being the final straw). The violence was only commited by a minority but a minority that hid within the wider English football community, recruited from it and drew strength from it. Some people whinged at the unfairness but it wasn't unfair... why should other people suffer because of a problem within the English game? It was an English problem and it was for the English football community to sort out. The real shame was that a solution wasn't robustly sought until after the non-English lost their rag and that was no doubt in part due to the apologists - it's only a few, most supporters are nice people, it's not fair. Let's hope the apologist do not delay action within the Muslim community until non-Muslims lose their rag.

 

And by the way... I have argued against a general ban on the burka (despite personally thinking it is a sign of oppression) because I think it is counter productive and would be an act of spite. I do however support a ban in places where other head-coverings would not be permitted, where there are health and safety issues or in the workplace if it was the judgement of the business that it was not customer friendly or portrayed the wrong message about the culture of their business.

[Hillpig]

The fact that you are tolerant does not mean everyone who shares your beliefs thinks the same way and there is no problem.

 

Your vegetarian analogy is interesting. When was the last time vegetarians set off a bomb because of their beliefs? When was the last time a vegetarian movement took over the running of a country and imposed their will on everyone and murdered anyone who didn't comply?

 

The fact is that some beliefs produce more radical and dangerous followers and Islam is unquestionable one of them. If the British Muslim community want acceptance and tolerance from non-Muslims then they not only need to be seen tackling the extremists within their ranks but also be seen to be winning.

 

Unarguably True.

[melthebell]

It is not me muddying the waters. Examples of individual Muslims being tolerant is not evidence that there is no problem! Your argument reminds me of when people use to say there was no problem with smoking because their granddad smoked like a chimney and lived to 93!

 

There is no separating the extremists from the wider Muslim community. The extremists are from that communiy, recruit from it and are hidden by it. It is the wider Muslim community from which they can draw strength... especially if they can get better organised for a sustained campaign of terror, which would bring a backlash, tit-for-tat reprisals, esculation, entrenchment and more Muslim youth flocking to the cause.

 

What we need to avoid is a situation like in 1985 when UEFA banned all English clubs from European competition because they were sick of the violence that followed them (the Heysel tragedy being the final straw). The violence was only commited by a minority but a minority that hid within the wider English football community, recruited from it and drew strength from it. Some people whinged at the unfairness but it wasn't unfair... why should other people suffer because of a problem within the English game? It was an English problem and it was for the English football community to sort out. The real shame was that a solution wasn't robustly sought until after the non-English lost their rag and that was no doubt in part due to the apologists - it's only a few, most supporters are nice people, it's not fair. Let's hope the apologist do not delay action within the Muslim community until non-Muslims lose their rag.

 

And by the way... I have argued against a general ban on the burka (despite personally thinking it is a sign of oppression) because I think it is counter productive and would be an act of spite. I do however support a ban in places where other head-coverings would not be permitted, where there are health and safety issues or in the workplace if it was the judgement of the business that it was not customer friendly or portrayed the wrong message about the culture of their business.

 

sigh whos saying there isnt a problem??? none of us, you dont seem to get it, its not about the extremists, we know they exist, THEY ARE the problem.

its when you lot go off on one with the terms islam, muslims as though they are interchangable and talk about ALL MUSLIMS, ALL ISLAM thats the issue. just like when the EDL do, and how Mr Robinson does at the end of that video i posted.

just like Angos seems to be speaking for ALL muslims when he talks about what they believe and how they interprete THEIR holy book as though he knows for a fact how ALL muslims should act and how to believe.

ITS how daily there is negative islamic stories posted on here, yes they are an issue but its how they are used, to push an anti islamic viewpoint by force, not diffrentiating between none extremists and extremists.

[Zamo]

sigh whos saying there isnt a problem??? none of us, you dont seem to get it, its not about the extremists, we know they exist, THEY ARE the problem.

its when you lot go off on one with the terms islam, muslims as though they are interchangable and talk about ALL MUSLIMS, ALL ISLAM thats the issue. just like when the EDL do, and how Mr Robinson does at the end of that video i posted.

just like Angos seems to be speaking for ALL muslims when he talks about what they believe and how they interprete THEIR holy book as though he knows for a fact how ALL muslims should act and how to believe.

ITS how daily there is negative islamic stories posted on here, yes they are an issue but its how they are used, to push an anti islamic viewpoint by force, not diffrentiating between none extremists and extremists.

 

Sigh... of course it isn't all Muslims but so what? Isn't the extremism coming from their community their responsibility to sort out? How is it different to the English football community being told to sort out their issues before they were welcome again in Europe?

 

The problem is we do not see enough evidence of Muslims activiely dealing with extremism within their community and, even if it is happening unseen or under-reported, it doesn't appear to be working. If there are 5 times the number of young Muslims going off to terror camps than joining the British armed services then the problems of extremism and a lack of integration are getting worse not better. The cause of the problem may be extremists but it is non-the-less a problem for ordinary, moderate, tolerant, decent, nice Muslims to address. If they do not address it then the tolerance towards them will continue to ebb until there is a final straw and it is gone. It is irelevant whether you think this is fair or not... it just is.