US hacking hypocrisy

[buck]

Butler reminds me of someone like Albert Speer who for many years served Hitler faithfully then during his trial admitted that what had been done was wrong.

I'm obviously not equating our leaders with anything connected with that era but Butler is a shallow character and it showed.

If the man had any backbone or real conviction of what he thought was wrong he should have resigned his military rank in protest and refused his military pension since it was earned in his opinion "by serving a county that was doing wrong".

Physically he was a brave man. Morally he was a wimp.

 

I'll respect any man for showing the courage to stand up for his true convictions and be willing to bear the sacrices and punishment knowing that by doing what he did he will probably end up a hard luck case with all that he earned and accumulated even being lost or forfeit.

 

I signed up for the Marines at a time when many were running off to Canada to avoid the draft. Even more I was a foreigner at that time also. I'm not bragging or trying to give the impression I'm some kind of "yee haw pilgrim" John Wayne type which i certainly am not

 

Many years later I knew a guy who had gone to Canada. In time I knew him to be truly a person who thoought all war was wrong and wanted no part of any of it. His father disowned him and when he returned to his home town after President Carter pardoned those who had avoided the draft he was verbally insulted and treated as a pariah.

 

I have a thousand times more respect for him than any man like Butler.

 

Assuming that i must be a Nixon supporter does you no credit in the IQ department. I will say a few words of praise fior the wretched fellow that he had the foresight to establish relations with Red China, an act of foreign policy that did the most for the eventual ending of the Cold War prior to Gorbachev's policy of Glasnost.

Nixon is still highly regarded in China to this day. When I was there in 2008 there were pictures of Nixon displayed in many places.

 

I dont know who termed the French "cheese eating surrender monkeys" but there was always a fallacy that the French threw in the towel in 1940 and left the British army stranded. Complete Bull S. The French army held off the Germans long enough to enable the British army to escape from Dunkirk and there were certainly very few cowards in the French army in 1914-18

The French soldier, le poilu, never lacked courage. THe fault lay in a military organization who thought the war would be fought in the way the first one was fought. Their belief in the Maginot Line was tragic. But no tank could ever get through the Ardennes, malheureusement, they did.

[mjw47]

You appear to have very little idea as what constitutes moral courage. In my view Major General Butler showed the absolute perfect example of both physical & moral courage. His physical courage goes without saying, his record stands for itself.

 

His moral courage in being prepared to stand up in public & state that. upon reflection, some of the actions undertaken by him on behalf of his country were less than pure was, in my opinion incredibly impressive.

If we are fortunate, we all get old, but for some of us that's all we do, get old. Others get wise as well. It is probably less painful not to grow wiser, that way you experience no regrets.

 

I have no doubt that whilst the Major General was serving his country he thought, initially at least, that he was doing the right thing & serving a noble cause. Only later did he get to realise that he & his comrades were being used by politicians & business corporations to satisfy their greed. The fat cats were sat at home in Wall St & Washington raking in millions whilst Butler & his comrades were risking their lives under the impression that because it was for their country they were serving a noble cause. Smedley Butler was 17 years of age when he joined the Marines. What did he Know of life at that point? He started working life as a miner in the coalfields of Pennsylvania.

 

How much easier would it have been, upon retirement, to accept the plaudits & adoration of his country?

He was a national hero. Instead of which he stood up & told the truth despite the personal cost.

 

That Harleyman is courage. Not only was he a great Marine he was a great man. You should be proud to have worn the same uniform as a man like that.

 

As to questioning my IQ regarding my having you down as a Nixon supporter, whilst you may be correct with regard to my level of intelligence, I have to point out that I was basing that assumption on a previous debate with you.

 

In a thread from last May entitled 'How is British history taught in schools?' I expressed my contempt with politicians in general 'with a few honourable exceptions'.

You then asked me to provide a list of the 'few exceptions'.

I did that, including names from Britain, Ireland & America, as the three countries where I have a limited knowledge of the political history.

 

In your reply -post 128 - you gave me the impression that you were a Nixon fan, preferring him to Kennedy, which I found strange. If this is not the case, fair enough.

 

As to French bravery I always cringe when the English, who appear to have an inferiority complex with regard to the French, start on with the running away cracks.

The facts show that France is the most successful military nation in Europe -possibly the world - based on wars fought, wars won.

 

There is a clue in the fact that the majority of military terms are French!

[psynuk]

 

I'll respect any man for showing the courage to stand up for his true convictions and be willing to bear the sacrices and punishment knowing that by doing what he did he will probably end up a hard luck case with all that he earned and accumulated even being lost or forfeit.

 

 

Any Man? Will that include Snowden?

 

He's going to risk the sacrifice of his life by doing what he's done, I'm glad he did it. But I'd be surprised should the us ever not persecute him for it.

 

There's already rumblings in the press of a bit of a U-turn by the US. I'm curious to know how many allies you'd have to estrange before a country is regarded as a pariah?

As information travels the world at ever faster speeds by channels not in control of governments, the world becomes wiser, faster and the scandals emanating from the US (and other places it should be mentioned) do nothing to convey the idea its the 'home of the brave& land of the free' any more. It's starting to come across as the home of the oppressor, the untrustable and the unbelievable.

 

Obviously this has little to do with the majority of people in the US/uk, but when the NSA and the GCHQ act like a bunch of 1st class cu*** you and I should know better than to swallow the terrorism line and defend them.

[dosxuk]

Any Man? Will that include Snowden?

 

Absolutely not.

 

While all the people skipping the US to avoid being drafted and only returning when they were pardoned are heroes to Harley, when it comes to Snowden...

 

Snowden is aiding and abetting the enemy..... the enemy being in this case groups like Al Qaeda.

 

To elaborate:

 

Snowdon is a whining traitor who probably had some private issue going on at work maybe with a supervisor and decided to get back the way he thought best.

 

 

And as for Bradley Manning...

 

Private Bradley Manning of the army who was in a positon of trust in his duties and downloaded a lot of Assanges Wiki Leaks, another misfit with a personal grudge to settle.

[Harleyman]

Absolutely not.

 

While all the people skipping the US to avoid being drafted and only returning when they were pardoned are heroes to Harley, when it comes to Snowden...

 

 

 

To elaborate:

 

 

 

 

And as for Bradley Manning...

 

 

 

I spoke of one man, not draft dodgers in general who were in the main a bunch of over indulged brats who had been brought up as pampered little goats by their parents

Unlike Manning and Snowden the guy had done nothing to betray his country only followed his conviction of not to kill. There are some like him in any war and many like him who became non-combatants, like medics and were as courageous as the soldiers they cared for

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2013 at 02:34 ----------

 

You appear to have very little idea as what constitutes moral courage. In my view Major General Butler showed the absolute perfect example of both physical & moral courage. His physical courage goes without saying, his record stands for itself.

 

His moral courage in being prepared to stand up in public & state that. upon reflection, some of the actions undertaken by him on behalf of his country were less than pure was, in my opinion incredibly impressive.

If we are fortunate, we all get old, but for some of us that's all we do, get old. Others get wise as well. It is probably less painful not to grow wiser, that way you experience no regrets.

 

I have no doubt that whilst the Major General was serving his country he thought, initially at least, that he was doing the right thing & serving a noble cause. Only later did he get to realise that he & his comrades were being used by politicians & business corporations to satisfy their greed. The fat cats were sat at home in Wall St & Washington raking in millions whilst Butler & his comrades were risking their lives under the impression that because it was for their country they were serving a noble cause. Smedley Butler was 17 years of age when he joined the Marines. What did he Know of life at that point? He started working life as a miner in the coalfields of Pennsylvania.

 

How much easier would it have been, upon retirement, to accept the plaudits & adoration of his country?

He was a national hero. Instead of which he stood up & told the truth despite the personal cost.

 

That Harleyman is courage. Not only was he a great Marine he was a great man. You should be proud to have worn the same uniform as a man like that.

 

As to questioning my IQ regarding my having you down as a Nixon supporter, whilst you may be correct with regard to my level of intelligence, I have to point out that I was basing that assumption on a previous debate with you.

 

In a thread from last May entitled 'How is British history taught in schools?' I expressed my contempt with politicians in general 'with a few honourable exceptions'.

You then asked me to provide a list of the 'few exceptions'.

I did that, including names from Britain, Ireland & America, as the three countries where I have a limited knowledge of the political history.

 

In your reply -post 128 - you gave me the impression that you were a Nixon fan, preferring him to Kennedy, which I found strange. If this is not the case, fair enough.

 

As to French bravery I always cringe when the English, who appear to have an inferiority complex with regard to the French, start on with the running away cracks.

The facts show that France is the most successful military nation in Europe -possibly the world - based on wars fought, wars won.

 

There is a clue in the fact that the majority of military terms are French!

 

Did Butler refuse his Major General's pension then? That would have been at least something admirable. I would have thought that this paragon of virtue would have regarded his generous monthly benefit as some kind of blood money.

He must have assigned battalions to combat, seen companies decimated, known that decsions he made resulted in the wounding and death of many a Marine. Has he professed his feeling of guilt over this since he was doing the "wrong thing" in all that time.

He's a rare bird indeed. Other military men of high rank and distinction have in retirement criticised decisons made but never so savagely and unashamededly turned on their own countries as he did. He must have brought a great deal of satisfaction and comfort to the likes of China, Russia and others who have no good will towards the US despite the handshakes, smiles and trade deals.

 

I never thought much of Kennedy. He had a wonderful PR team working for him and a father as ruthless and ambitious as it's possible to be. His disasterous handling of the Bay of Pigs invasion led Kruschev to believe he was a rank amateur and it also led the Soviet leader to believe that he could sneak missiles into Cuba and get away with it later on.

 

Nixon for all his faults succeeded in ending the Vietnam war. I believe it could have been won but it had dragged on too long, had not been prosecuted to it's fullest extent and there had been a failure in the top echelons to win hearts and minds amongst the peasant population but who instead preferred to cosy up to the rotten Catholic ruling elite in Saigon.

 

I agree with your comments on the French. They also had a great army under Napoleon, probably without peer at that time. Napoleon, the wise soldier once said that there is a "Field Marshall's baton in every soldiers pack"

Commissions were probablt rarely bought by nincompoops who just fanced a nice uniform to show off to their lady loves. It gives credit to the ordinary British soldier who fpught so valiantly despite being commanded by a complete nincompoop now and again. The Crimea war comes to mind in this instance

[psynuk]

Your sweeping generalisations do a discredit to your intelligence. Although I do think your patriotism is a little blinkering, it is nice you have some. But what do you consider to be okay to turn traitor at? Is nothing sacrosanct when commandments say it isn't?

 

On the whole I think snowdens reveals come as little surprise to anyone with half a brain.

It is good and right to have things like that, that are illegal, revealed to the world.

I wonder, if when you join the military you pledge allegience to; the employer, the job or the country. And if as I suspect it's the country, when does it become the right thing to expose the practice?

 

I mean at what point do the liberties and freedoms of the people of the country and the imperative to inform them of their erosion overtake the requirements and requests to do it to them by the 'country'. Where's the tipping point of morality?

[mjw47]

Harleyman, You & I are going to have to disagree on the Major General. To me a man who continues to think & to question throughout his life -despite the discomfort which it may bring - is an admirable person.

You on the other hand appear to be of the opinion that once a course of action is embarked upon there is no room to question or have a change of heart.

People such as you make a useful tool for the power hungry.

 

You have attacked Smedley Butler on a personal level but I notice you are unable to deny his statements. Difficult to deny the truth isn't it?

 

As for Kennedy the Russians were proved wrong about him weren't they?

[Phanerothyme]

The thing that staggers me most of all is that the supposedly world leading secret services are unable to keep even the most secret secrets secret.

 

One subcontractor walked out of a top secret facility with tens of thousands of top secret documents, on a USB stick.

 

No wonder the mightiest nation on earth had its military computers hacked by slightly odd young man who still lives with his mum if this is their attitude to "security".

[erebus]

It's not hypocrisy. There hasnt been a terrorist act in the US in a decade and that's due in no small measure to intelligence gathering. Do you know how many potential terrorist attacks have been foiled by listening into phone calls and E-mails? You seem to be the expert on such matters so take a guess.

 

Well thanks for re-classifying the Boston bombing Mr Encyclopedia, great to know your depth and breath of knowledge is up to the usual standard on would expect from a tabloid consumer.

[mjw47]

The thing that staggers me most of all is that the supposedly world leading secret services are unable to keep even the most secret secrets secret.

 

One subcontractor walked out of a top secret facility with tens of thousands of top secret documents, on a USB stick.

 

No wonder the mightiest nation on earth had its military computers hacked by slightly odd young man who still lives with his mum if this is their attitude to "security".

 

As someone who was involved in electronic security systems for 33 years I have to agree with you.

Whilst my knowledge did not extend to computers & software systems I have to say the basics of ensuring physical access & egress to secure locations lacks credibility.

 

As to the 'slightly odd young men', I would be inclined to employ them rather than persecute them.

Most of them seem to have no negative ulterior motive, just a desire to prove they can, or look for proof of aliens .