Iran,US talks on Atomic Issues

[slugger]

Neither would have America ! = This is gibberish. It makes no sense. America what?

 

Your point in reference to harleyman is nothing to do with me. You need to talk to him about that. No doubt many of the casualties of the nuclear bombs were innocent (a point I mentioned to harleyman), but Japan was the country that decided to attack the Americans and was already responsible for deliberate killing millions of innocents across China and the Pacific.

 

America was faced with losing over another million service personnel and another million wounded or it could try and end the war. Any country would have done the same. Japan certainly would have had no hesitation on using one on America if it could have.

 

If you had been in charge would you have expected your country to say lets lose millions more of our own citizns and carry in fighting for another year? As you said your undestanding of history is far from perfect, but you might appreciate things more if you went away and read up on the subject.

 

 

On the main matter about whether Iran is attempting to build a bomb, then I notice you refuse to provide any answer for the thousands of centrifuges they have and the uranium enrichment beyond that needed for nuclear power. The refusal for inspections which they have agreed to in the NPT.

 

It isnt me, but the very people who are doing the negotiating that predict Iran is close to building a bomb because it is most of the way there and it would take about 5-10 years on the current rate of progress to get there. Some of the estimates by weapons inspectors concerning the centrifuges at Natanz estimate they will have enough uranium in a much much shorter period than 5 years. Not me making the predictions, but IAE inspectors who happen to be nuclear scientists. They should know.

 

Your only response has been they arent building a bomb because of prying eyes and America not being stupid, which is again meaningless gibberish unless you explain it with some reason.

 

The IAE, UN and large parts of the world including China, USA and Russia believe they are attempting to make a bomb hence the sanctions.

 

There is nothing wrong with predicting how far they are away from making a bomb because that was the subject matter of the discussion. At least I can back it up with reasons why I think they are based on current estimates from the IAE. The estimates are made because things change significantly if and when they can make weapons.

 

Your response is America isnt stupid.= No it isnt hence the sanctions.

Prying eyes= Its the very fact Iran isnt allowing inspections that has been part of the reason so many people are worried in the IAE that the only reason for their actions is to hide their efforts to build a bomb. If you can use google then you will see many articles which estimate how far they are from building a bomb based on the available evidence and what we know about the procedures needed to be carried out.

 

You cnar even go on to explain what that means.

 

Where dos all this information come from without prying eyes ? Genuine question.

[Harleyman]

MY original comments regarding the two nuclear strikes were fact.

Nuclear bombing, by its very nature is indiscriminate, for Harleyman to say there were no innocent victims is surely questionable .

 

Regarding your comment on Iran having a bomb in the next 5-10 years, how do you know ? Do you use a magic crystal ball ? It might be on the blink, give it a good shake !

Do you know more about the situation regarding Iran than the people who negotiated with them ?

 

I wonder if you went along along with the Gulf war, to rid Iraq of its none existent WMDs ?

 

Your statement regarding them having a bomb could well turn out to be idiotic in time, we'll see.

 

My knowledge of history may not be perfect, but at least I don't conjure up predictions about the future.

 

ALL bombing was indiscriminate. What's the difference between bombs dropped by Heinkels, Dorniers, Lancasters, B-17s and B-29s during WW2 and the two A-Bombs dropped on Japan or is your argument based on the completely illogical theory that only the use of atomic bombs is indiscriminate ?

 

A nation cannot wage war without the support of it's civilian population. It supplies manpower for the military forces, maintains the infrastructure during time of war and last but not least by it's labour manufactures, equips and supplies the very esssentials needed to prosecute war.

 

Do you think Hitler could have waged an aggressive war for five years without the support of the civilian population?

 

The Japanese with their ancient culture believed that their Emperor was more than something of this earth... a god in fact. Every Japanese civilian, man, woman and child was willing to die for him... that's the way it was.

 

Winning wars on a battlefield were only half the solution. Destroying the infrastructure and the morale and will of the people themselves to continue to aid their leaders and the their military forces was the other half. That's how wars were always fought. There were no Tomahawk missiles that could be launched from a ship and programmed to hit a precise military target 30 miles away back then.

 

There were innocent civilians. Those Germans who opposed Hitler and any in Japan who were against Japan, (a minority probably) going to war against America but as generally happens such people are either executed or thrown into prison very quickly. That leaves the kids, (those who werent brainwashed) but the miseries of innocent kids are visited upon them by the deeds of the parents and that's the way it always is.

 

---------- Post added 01-12-2013 at 18:55 ----------

 

From what I understand the agreement is only a temporary one.

[999tigger]

The IAE and other institutions. Google it. Do some research.

 

The stuff about WW2 then just read up on it.

 

Harley I think they have to comply with the Geneva Convention in terms of civilian targets.

Your ideas about bombing are wrong at least in terms of how international law applies and your comments about Dresden also wrong.

Edited December 1, 2013 by 999tigger

[Harleyman]

The IAE and other institutions. Google it. Do some research.

 

The stuff about WW2 then just read up on it.

 

Harley I think they have to comply with the Geneva Convention in terms of civilian targets.

Your ideas about bombing are wrong at least in terms of how international law applies and your comments about Dresden also wrong.

 

The comments I made about WW2 and the bombing by either side were not wrong if that's what you mean. The Geneva Convention played no part in the picking of enemy targets by either side. Most industrial factories in densly popullated areas like those in Germany and Britain were surrounded by houses and flats and a bomb aimer aboard a large aircraft which was being rocked around by ack ack fire had a very difficult job in releasing the bombs to fall exactly on target and that's the way it was. If they hadnt bombed the factories out of concern for the civilian population we'd have just lost the war.

 

I dont think missiles and drones today are intentionally released on civlian targets. During the first Gulf War they were able to fire a missile from 50 miles out at sea to go straight through the window of an Iraqi command post.

 

Of course nothing is still completely fool proof and sometimes civilians are in the wrong place at the wrong time but that's just the way it is

 

 

The jury is still out on Dresden. Many have condemned it as barbarism by Churchill and Bomber Command Air Marshall Harris was also criiticised for his policy of bombing Germany into submission.

 

The thing is however that military leaders are paid and employed to direct the wiinning of wars. Prolonging them by trying to fight it one handed only causes far more suffering and destruction in the long run

[Mozilla]

Is that your own opinion or have you just posted a link from some Fascist far right publication on the net.

 

Zionism isn't the problem. Jihadism and Islamic extremism are the problems because we are dealing here with religious reactionaries who see social progress and human rights, particulalrly those relating to the equality of girls and women as a threat to a way of life that still exists in the stone age.

 

Western society with its increasing and progressive freedoms is looked upon as the enemy and an enemy to be harmed and attacked whenever and wherever possible.

 

Iran may still manage to produce a nuclear bomb. The probability that it's leaders would be foolish enough to use it againsy Israel is probably slight at the moment but it only takes one fanatic who thinks that there's a better world waiting somewhere else to be tempted to use it

 

My opinion is based on fact and there is evidence supporting the facts. Zionism is not a problem for the people who profit from it but its a big issues for the people who have to pay the price...millions of lives lost in the current wars including USA and British soldiers. USA and Britain does not have its own foreign policy. The last time USA had a foreign policy was back in 1963 when JFK did not play ball....he was dead 6 months latter. Nothing has changed in modern world as you can see how Bush\Blair & co have raked in billions.

 

The Zionists fund and support (media) the Politicians before they get elected and in turn payback when in office... get rewarded after they leave office. How do you thing Blair is now worth £100 Million. Murdoch did not pop into number 10 by the back door 3 days before the Iraq war....for nothing!

 

“Jihadism and Islamic extremism are the problems because we are dealing here with religious reactionaries who see social progress and human rights, particulalrly those relating to the equality of girls and women as a threat to a way of life that still exists in the stone age. “

 

These policies are in place to keep dictators in power like the Saudi royal family. Interestingly they are very much aligned with the Zionists. Prince Bandar Bush the creator and head of al qaeda (9/11) is a frequent visitor to Israel. They both feed of each other. Wonder why there has not been any al qaeda suicide attacks inside Israel or soft targets worldwide...

 

Extremism is just not confined to one religion...

 

Israel is currently a medieval, theocratic society where yeshiva students and their teachers spit on Christian clerics, women are beaten, reviled and abused if the sit on the front seats of buses, little girls are called 'Whore' in the street by adult males, and women are attacked for trying to pray at the wall of a temple in Jerusalem. Even some Zionists are alarmed at this...and moving leftwards !

 

IN the USA you have 40 million Christian fundamentalists so called 'Friends of Israel'. These friends want the world to end so that they could be raptured up to heaven. In the first chapter Armageeddon must happen in the middle east . In the second chapter the jews will be wiped out!

 

Israel is happy to accommodate (Hotels & tours) and entertain these friends who wish to see them wiped out ..?

 

“Iran may still manage to produce a nuclear bomb.”

 

It's not in anyone interest to have a nuclear bomb....as when WW3 happens, the first country that will be hit are those who have one. Israel has 300 nukes and as the rabbi in the youtube above states....the Zionists have made Israel a very dangerous state for Jews....

Edited December 1, 2013 by Mozilla

[Harleyman]

My opinion is based on fact and there is evidence supporting the facts. Zionism is not a problem for the people who profit from it but its a big issues for the people who have to pay the price...millions of lives lost in the current wars including USA and British soldiers. USA and Britain does not have its own foreign policy. The last time USA had a foreign policy was back in 1963 when JFK did not play ball....he was dead 6 months latter. Nothing has changed in modern world as you can see how Bush\Blair & co have raked in billions.

 

The Zionists fund and support (media) the Politicians before they get elected and in turn payback when in office... get rewarded after they leave office. How do you thing Blair is now worth £100 billion. Murdoch did not pop into number 10 by the back door 3 days before the Iraq war....for nothing!

 

“Jihadism and Islamic extremism are the problems because we are dealing here with religious reactionaries who see social progress and human rights, particulalrly those relating to the equality of girls and women as a threat to a way of life that still exists in the stone age. “

 

These policies are in place to keep dictators in power like the Saudi royal family. Interestingly they are very much aligned with the Zionists. Prince Bandar Bush the creator and head of al qaeda (9/11) is a frequent visitor to Israel. They both feed of each other. Wonder why there has not been any suicide attacks inside Israel or soft targets worldwide...

 

Extremism is just not confined to one religion...

 

Israel is currently a medieval, theocratic society where yeshiva students and their teachers spit on Christian clerics, women are beaten, reviled and abused if the sit on the front seats of buses, little girls are called 'Whore' in the street by adult males, and women are attacked for trying to pray at the wall of a temple in Jerusalem. Even some Zionists are alarmed at this...and moving leftwards !

 

IN the USA you have 40 million Christian fundamentalists so called 'Friends of Israel'. These friends want the world to end so that they could be raptured up to heaven. In the first chapter Armageeddon must happen in the middle east . In the second chapter the jews will be wiped out!

 

Israel is happy to accommodate (Hotels & tours) and entertain these friends who wish to see them wiped out ..?

 

“Iran may still manage to produce a nuclear bomb.”

 

It's not in anyone interest to have a nuclear bomb....as when WW3 happens, the first country that will be hit are those who have one. Israel has 300 nukes and as the rabbi in the youtube above states....the Zionists have made Israel a very dangerous state for Jews....

 

Wrong on just about every count on Israel. These so called Zionist conspiracies are nothing more than rehashing the tired olld clap trap that Hitler ranted on about in Mein Kampf.

 

It's normal that American-Jews would feel some identity and concerns about the Jewish homeland just as other immigrants groups and their descendents are similarly concerned about theirs. Iraqi and Syrian Americans for example.

Many Iranians I've come across here are dead against the current regime in Iran. Some would like to go back to live if ever the current regime disappears and secularism and democracy happen.

 

America has always had it's religious oddities but their beliefs count for nothing in the real world. They get attention from the media because the media likes to draw attention to such people maybe for a covert laugh or two at their expense.

 

There have been two attempts to destroy Israel in the last fifty years. Why should the space of time that has elapsed since then reassure them in any way that the same might not be attempted again

 

Nukes are the country's ace in the hole, the last resort to be used if ever the country was overrun and the population being driven into the sea. Any other country would do the same

[Jeffrey Shaw]

There have been two attempts to destroy Israel in the last fifty years. Why should the space of time that has elapsed since then reassure them in any way that the same might not be attempted again

 

Nukes are the country's ace in the hole, the last resort to be used if ever the country was overrun and the population being driven into the sea. Any other country would do the same

More than two. At least Saudi Arabia is equally concerned by the madness of Obama's so-called deal.

Neville Chamberlain also had a piece of paper, from that Mr Hitler. "Peace in our time", he said. Did that work out?

[A: No.]

[999tigger]

Harleyman you should read up on the targeting of civilians and when its allowed or not.

 

Your flippant statement about Dresden having a similar amount of fatalities as either Tokyo or the nuclear bombs is just plain wrong. So not the same at all.

 

Dresden casualties 18,000-25,000

 

Tokyo 88,000-100,000

 

Hiroshima 135,000 +

 

Nagasaki 50,000 +

[Harleyman]

Harleyman you should read up on the targeting of civilians and when its allowed or not.

 

Your flippant statement about Dresden having a similar amount of fatalities as either Tokyo or the nuclear bombs is just plain wrong. So not the same at all.

 

Dresden casualties 18,000-25,000

 

Tokyo 88,000-100,000

 

Hiroshima 135,000 +

 

Nagasaki 50,000 +

 

 

Irrespective of the casualties I must again emphasise that using intensive conventional as well as the A-Bombs was the only way to get Japan to surrender. They still had very large numbers of troops in Indo-China. Malaya, the Phillipines who were still fighting in August 1945 although their navy and air force were on their last legs.

 

I dare say you're earlier post giving reasons why Dresden should have been bombed are quite valid so I wont dispute that any further. I think you know more about Dresden than I do

 

Your grand parents generation were war weary by 1945, had suffered bombing by aircraft and V-1 and V-2 rockets, gone without anything decent in the way of consumer goods for five years and many had lost loved ones or seen loved ones come home crippled for life mentally and physically.

 

There wasn't a tear shed anywhere in Britain when the news came through that Japan had been finally forced to surrender. Their domination of south-east asia had been a cruel and brutal one preceded by atrocities on a large scale in China and Manchuria during the 1930s. Their treatment of allied POWs violated every rule set down in the Geneva Convention

 

In short the Japs got what they deserved. They sowed the seeds of war and reaped the whirlwind.

 

Modern history however teaches different. That a tear should be shed for the bestards. People have short memories and yesterday's heroes sometimes become todays villains and vice versa so I'm not surpised what I read from some on here

[mafya]

Wrong on just about every count on Israel. These so called Zionist conspiracies are nothing more than rehashing the tired olld clap trap that Hitler ranted on about in Mein Kampf.

 

It's normal that American-Jews would feel some identity and concerns about the Jewish homeland just as other immigrants groups and their descendents are similarly concerned about theirs. Iraqi and Syrian Americans for example.

Many Iranians I've come across here are dead against the current regime in Iran. Some would like to go back to live if ever the current regime disappears and secularism and democracy happen.

 

America has always had it's religious oddities but their beliefs count for nothing in the real world. They get attention from the media because the media likes to draw attention to such people maybe for a covert laugh or two at their expense.

 

There have been two attempts to destroy Israel in the last fifty years. Why should the space of time that has elapsed since then reassure them in any way that the same might not be attempted again

 

Nukes are the country's ace in the hole, the last resort to be used if ever the country was overrun and the population being driven into the sea. Any other country would do the same[/QUOTE]

 

My bold=

Undeclared and uninspected by the IAEA nukes, Israel's Nuclear arsenal has not being officially declared yet they and other including yourself go on about Iran trying to get a nuclear bomb!

The word hypocrites springs to mind....