Daily Mail: The Church is facing extinction

[altus]

No, of course not, but if the message of right and wrong comes from 'God' it can be more effective on impressionable children. It's also has to be daily and consistant, not a debate.

 

This might be considered wrong by some, but the affect can be dramatic and long lasting even though the actual belief in God might fade with time and reason. Debate can come later, the message stays fixed.

 

That's certainly true - you only have to look at things like Catholic guilt. Even if you ignore the teaching kids falsehoods issue, it doesn't mean that you are teaching them to behave in a healthy way though (see Catholic guilt again).

 

But ignoring that for the moment. Who's idea of god do you teach in schools? What do you do about those brought up at home with a different idea of god or of there being no god? How do you teach comparative theology and respect for people of all faiths and none when you are telling the kids that one version of god is correct and all the others are wrong? How about all the other things religions have views on to varying degrees? Sexuality? Contraception? Abortion? Sex before marriage? Eating meat? Position of women in society? Even if you don't explicitly teach those things, by saying "this version of god is correct" you are supporting them whether you intend to or not.

[Anna B]

That's certainly true - you only have to look at things like Catholic guilt. Even if you ignore the teaching kids falsehoods issue, it doesn't mean that you are teaching them to behave in a healthy way though (see Catholic guilt again).

 

But ignoring that for the moment. Who's idea of god do you teach in schools? What do you do about those brought up at home with a different idea of god or of there being no god? How do you teach comparative theology and respect for people of all faiths and none when you are telling the kids that one version of god is correct and all the others are wrong? How about all the other things religions have views on to varying degrees? Sexuality? Contraception? Abortion? Sex before marriage? Eating meat? Position of women in society? Even if you don't explicitly teach those things, by saying "this version of god is correct" you are supporting them whether you intend to or not.

 

I think you're over complicating it a bit. All religions have a God (probably the same one) and similar messages.

Yes, multiculturalism is a challenge, although I think we should celebrate what we have in common rather than emphasize what we don't. I personally think the default setting should be Church of England, (the clue's in the name..)

 

But then we've always had people of many other faiths, and other branches of Christianity, and they all rubbed along just fine. The sort of RE I used to get in my day was pretty simplistic and all encompassing. Few would object, but if they did they just sat out of RE and assemblies. They usually went to their own churches and had religious education there.

 

But my point is, if our kids don't go to church, and get no RE at school, they end up with no frame of reference for much of what has affected our culture, and our history, and gives shape to our lives. Religion goes first, and then other things will inevitably follow, until our culture has disappeared altogether and we will be much the poorer for it. It's happening already. I hardly recognise the Society I live in sometimes and the way people who live in it think.

 

Remember, while our church declines, other faiths are still very proactive and will happily fill the religious vacuum if we let them.

 

As for teaching kids falsehoods - we do it all the time if we think it's for the right reasons. Father Christmas anybody? Now I know he doesn't exist, but God is still debatable possibility. How can kids make up their own minds if they've never heard of him?

[altus]

I think you're over complicating it a bit. All religions have a God (probably the same one) and similar messages.

Yes, multiculturalism is a challenge, although I think we should celebrate what we have in common rather than emphasize what we don't. I personally think the default setting should be Church of England, (the clue's in the name..)

 

But then we've always had people of many other faiths, and other branches of Christianity, and they all rubbed along just fine. The sort of RE I used to get in my day was pretty simplistic and all encompassing. Few would object, but if they did they just sat out of RE and assemblies. They usually went to their own churches and had religious education there.

The sort of RE in my day was Christian indoctrination - which is what you're advocating.

 

But my point is, if our kids don't go to church, and get no RE at school, they end up with no frame of reference for much of what has affected our culture, and our history, and gives shape to our lives.

Nobody's advocating no RE - RE as comparative theology that is. What you are advocating is teaching one religion as true and saying, even if only by implication, that all the others are false.

 

Religion goes first, and then other things will inevitably follow, until our culture has disappeared altogether and we will be much the poorer for it. It's happening already. I hardly recognise the Society I live in sometimes and the way people who live in it think.

Our culture has always been in a constant state of change. I'm sure there were people who regretted the abandonment of Catholicism with the formation of the CofE and others sad at no longer being able to burn witches.

 

Remember, while our church declines, other faiths are still very proactive and will happily fill the religious vacuum if we let them.

The way to avoid a religious vacuum is with reason and logic to form a properly secular society not prop up a religion that people are turning away from.

 

As for teaching kids falsehoods - we do it all the time if we think it's for the right reasons. Father Christmas anybody? Now I know he doesn't exist, but God is still debatable possibility. How can kids make up their own minds if they've never heard of him?

 

Nobody tells kids they'll spend the rest of eternity in hell if they stop believing in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy so they are hardly comparable.

 

The question is rather 'How can kids make up their own minds if they've ONLY heard of him and not any of the alternatives?' which is what you are advocating.

[Stan Tamudo]

......................

[Anna B]

The sort of RE in my day was Christian indoctrination - which is what you're advocating.

 

 

Nobody's advocating no RE - RE as comparative theology that is. What you are advocating is teaching one religion as true and saying, even if only by implication, that all the others are false.

 

 

Our culture has always been in a constant state of change. I'm sure there were people who regretted the abandonment of Catholicism with the formation of the CofE and others sad at no longer being able to burn witches.

 

 

The way to avoid a religious vacuum is with reason and logic to form a properly secular society not prop up a religion that people are turning away from.

 

 

 

Nobody tells kids they'll spend the rest of eternity in hell if they stop believing in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy so they are hardly comparable.

 

The question is rather 'How can kids make up their own minds if they've ONLY heard of him and not any of the alternatives?' which is what you are advocating.

 

I'm talking infant school children in an ordinary primary school, not a Catholic school or anything like that. I don't think they're ready for comparative theology, (that comes later.) At that age they just need the basics, and as far as I'm aware most religions agree on the simple stuff, ie. God loves us and wants us to love each other, he watches over us and sees how we behave, so be good and not do each other harm... (any religion which doesn't teach that has problems) How to pray and say Grace and singing songs together that say thankyou for what we have. Is that indoctrination? As far as I can see it is non-denominational.

When I was at school I was never told I would burn in hell if I didn't behave - again any religion that does has serious issues. I was told it just makes God sad.

 

This country has been religious since the earliest settlements and predominantly Christian for over a thousand years. The C of E has finally developed into a benign influence, that hurts no one and accepts all.

 

But now the changes are coming thick and fast, and they are not always benign or accepting.

[SnailyBoy]

I'm talking infant school children in an ordinary primary school, not a Catholic school or anything like that. I don't think they're ready for comparative theology, (that comes later.) At that age they just need the basics, and as far as I'm aware most religions agree on the simple stuff, ie. God loves us and wants us to love each other, he watches over us and sees how we behave, so be good and not do each other harm... (any religion which doesn't teach that has problems) How to pray and say Grace and singing songs together that say thankyou for what we have. Is that indoctrination? As far as I can see it is non-denominational.

When I was at school I was never told I would burn in hell if I didn't behave - again any religion that does has serious issues. I was told it just makes God sad.

 

This country has been religious since the earliest settlements and predominantly Christian for over a thousand years. The C of E has finally developed into a benign influence, that hurts no one and accepts all.

 

But now the changes are coming thick and fast, and they are not always benign or accepting.

 

Accepts all? The C of E don't even give women equal rights.

 

They're not at all accepting of same sex marriage either.

[angos]

 

As for teaching kids falsehoods - we do it all the time if we think it's for the right reasons. Father Christmas anybody? Now I know he doesn't exist, but God is still debatable possibility. How can kids make up their own minds if they've never heard of him?

 

The Biblicle God isn't a possibility and if we teach kids about this imaginary figure then surely we should teach them about all imaginary figures, so that they can make up their own minds about their existence.

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2013 at 07:27 ----------

 

I'm talking infant school children in an ordinary primary school, not a Catholic school or anything like that. I don't think they're ready for comparative theology, (that comes later.) At that age they just need the basics, and as far as I'm aware most religions agree on the simple stuff, ie. God loves us and wants us to love each other, he watches over us and sees how we behave, so be good and not do each other harm... (any religion which doesn't teach that has problems) How to pray and say Grace and singing songs together that say thankyou for what we have. Is that indoctrination? As far as I can see it is non-denominational.

When I was at school I was never told I would burn in hell if I didn't behave - again any religion that does has serious issues. I was told it just makes God sad.

 

This country has been religious since the earliest settlements and predominantly Christian for over a thousand years. The C of E has finally developed into a benign influence, that hurts no one and accepts all.

 

But now the changes are coming thick and fast, and they are not always benign or accepting.

 

And looking back through the history of humanity as that teaching stopped people killing each other, its also clearly nonsense, a God that loves everyone wouldn't inflict so much suffering on its creation. It would be much better at a young age to teach kids the real consequences of be naughty and committing crime.

[SnailyBoy]

I'm talking infant school children in an ordinary primary school, not a Catholic school or anything like that. I don't think they're ready for comparative theology, (that comes later.) At that age they just need the basics, and as far as I'm aware most religions agree on the simple stuff, ie. God loves us and wants us to love each other, he watches over us and sees how we behave, so be good and not do each other harm... (any religion which doesn't teach that has problems) How to pray and say Grace and singing songs together that say thankyou for what we have. Is that indoctrination? As far as I can see it is non-denominational.

When I was at school I was never told I would burn in hell if I didn't behave - again any religion that does has serious issues. I was told it just makes God sad.

 

This country has been religious since the earliest settlements and predominantly Christian for over a thousand years. The C of E has finally developed into a benign influence, that hurts no one and accepts all.

 

But now the changes are coming thick and fast, and they are not always benign or accepting.

 

Oh your god really loves the children all right. So much so there's a number of rules set out in the Bible to follow if children are naughty. I suppose this will prevent your god being 'sad'

 

Children who refuse to obey their parents must be executed. A little harsh , but your god says it should be done.

 

'If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.' -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

'He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death'. -- Exodus 21:17

 

Children who mock their parents will have their eyes plucked out by ravens and eaten by eagles.

 

'The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.' -- Proverbs 30:17

 

 

There's plenty more where that came from. My personal favourite is where someday your god will force you to eat your own children

 

'And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat'. -- Leviticus 26:29

 

Still it should keep the little rascals in line, don't you think?

[LeMaquis]

The Biblicle God isn't a possibility and if we teach kids about this imaginary figure then surely we should teach them about all imaginary figures, so that they can make up their own minds about their existence.

 

And looking back through the history of humanity as that teaching stopped people killing each other, its also clearly nonsense, a God that loves everyone wouldn't inflict so much suffering on its creation. It would be much better at a young age to teach kids the real consequences of be naughty and committing crime.

 

Something I finally agree with Smithy about. Normally I'd say maybe there is a god after all.

[Anna B]

For heaven's sake... I'm talking about a benign modern message of a modern Church, not the horror, destruction and garbage of the Old Testament, which went out long ago. In fact I haven't mentioned the Bible at all.

I think we're well past the fire and brimstone stage, so why is it constantly being brought up in any discussion about modern Christianity?

 

On the other hand, if you like your religion bloody and destructive leave a gap and allow a few fundamentalists murderers to take hold and force their religion upon us.

 

The one thing that protects us is the fact that we have a benevolent, peaceful, easy going National Church to which we can all belong.