Overlooked Mandella's opinions on the USA and Israel

[southcoast]

Incredible! . That's one of the most blatantly racist & ridiculous stereotypical biased statements I've ever seen.

 

Seriously, you need to seek help with your issues.

 

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, I have to point out that that was exactly the type of absolute crap the Nazi party spouted in the 30's.

 

Take a break, have a lie down.

 

Its as true now as its ever been,just look at what the Israelis and Zionists are doing to the Palestinians,ethnic cleansing and starving the people,anyone who thinks this is right needs to seek help.

[Harleyman]

Now you're inventing opinions of mine that never existed .

 

I am fully aware that tribal hatred exists in that part of the world & no one is responsible other than the local population.

 

I am also aware that the present borders of Iraq came into existence when some British General sat down with some French General a map, a ruler & a fine bottle(s) of wine & decided to draw lines on the map.

 

No consideration whatsoever was given to tribal areas, ethnic variances or religious differences. Lets face it these people were uncivilized heathens of little consequence, so what could possibly go wrong?

 

But here's the thing, in the same way that Tito was keeping the lid on Yugoslavia ,Saddam was keeping control of Iraq.

 

Were things perfect? Hell no, people in democracies have never had to put up with that crap.

 

On the other hand are things better now? Has the intervention of the west & the removal of Saddam improved the lot of the normal Iraqi?

 

Hell no, it IS total chaos.

 

You suggest two options, American created mayhem, or Chinese tyranny.

 

How about a third option?

 

Why not leave Saddam where he was, but bribe, cajole, threaten & persuade him to act in a way we want?

 

Not dramatic enough for you? True, but on the other hand thousands upon thousands of innocent people, including women & children would still be alive today who are dead in the ground.

 

As to all that Kennedy/ Mandela was a Saint business, give it a rest jarhead .

 

Kennedy was just like the rest of us, a far from perfect human being, still a great man though.

 

Mandela was a terrorist during a part of his life, still a great man though.

 

As another great man Brenden Behan said 'The terrorist is the man with the small bomb'.

 

Government sponsored terrorism, even if looked at individually, Country by country, is responsible for more deaths throughout the world than all the Freedom Fighter/Terrorist groups combined.

 

---------- Post added 09-12-2013 at 23:14 ----------

 

 

If, as suggested, the Americans were after the oil, it was the ONLY rational policy, wasn't it?

 

The media are making out Mandela to be some kind of saint. I havent yet seen any critique on any news channel. I dont think anyone even dares to and that's what annoys me. I dont like the media placing people on pedestals because they are sending a false signal. A person's past as well as his or her accomplishments must be shown "warts and all" to quote Cromwell

 

If I were to go to a high school and tell the students that Nelson Mandela in his early years was a member of a terrorist organisation i would be called a racist and tossed off campus on my ear. I would in other words be accused of "Bad Speak irrespective if what I said was true. On the other hand "Good Speak" is in tandem with political correctness which is in it's way a modern form of tyranny, the First Amendment overlooked BTW

 

I dont want to get into another discussion on Kennedy but just let me sound like the proverbial broken record. He was not "Great" He wasnt around long enough to gain that recognition and by the time of his death his approval ratings which encompass how well he had performed his duties overall were pretty mediocre

 

As far as Saddam was concerned he was a very naughy boy even by middle east standards of the day. Invading Kuwait, imposing a brutal occupation, using chemical weapons against his own people. Something of a loose cannon and head of a very large and very well equipped army with a modern air force and missiles which could reach Israel and actually did during the first Gulf war. Worrisome and unpredictable would be the right words.

 

You can conveniently believe that "word on the street bro" stuff about it being "oil" but I believe there was more than just that involved

[janie48]

The media are making out Mandela to be some kind of saint. I havent yet seen any critique on any news channel. I dont think anyone even dares to and that's what annoys me. I dont like the media placing people on pedestals because they are sending a false signal. A person's past as well as his or her accomplishments must be shown "warts and all" to quote Cromwell

Well I wouldn't say they are here, in the documentaries I've seen, they did compliment him a great deal, but didn't fail to mention some of his weaknesses.

 

I've forgotten the name of the man interviewed on the radio, that is associated with the film biography, but he said that Nelson Mandela emphasised that he didn't want to be portrayed as a saint, and acknowledged that he had been far from perfect especially in his early life.

 

I feel he had so many good and remarkable qualities.

I really do admire him, and hope those great qualities ( especially his ability to forgive and not carry resentment) will continue to inspire the young and be recognised, without necessarily putting him on a pedestal and making out he was perfect, because few people are, if any.

[angos]

 

 

How about a third option?

 

Why not leave Saddam where he was, but bribe, cajole, threaten & persuade him to act in a way we want?

Isn't that what they were doing when Saddam invaded Kuwait, gassed and tortured his own people, and bluffed about developing WMD.

 

 

If, as suggested, the Americans were after the oil, it was the ONLY rational policy, wasn't it?

 

It was the ONLY rational policy, full stop, but it isn't evidence that the Americans wanted the oil.

[mjw47]

Harleyman.

 

YOUR media may be making him out to be a saint. Ours isn't, at least not the paper I read, The Times which, whilst providing a great deal of coverage - including special pullout supplements - has included his ANC past in detail.

 

Anyone with half a brain cell surely has to realize that it is precisely because of his terrorist past, & his subsequent conversion to peace & reconciliation that he is regarded as he is.

Without his violent past he would just be a do gooder who would have got bugger all done.

 

As to Saddam being such a naughty boy, that didn't stop the west being on his side in the war against Iran did it?

It didn't prevent the the supply of weapons & 'advisor's' did it?

 

As Lord Palmerston said about England when it was top dog 'We have no eternal allies, & we have no perpetual enemies.Only our interests are eternal and perpetual.'

 

And that is precisely what every major country thinks. To believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.

The US did not go to war with Iraq to right a wrong it did so for self interest alone.

 

That it was mainly about oil & construction contracts wasn't just 'word on the street bro' it was also accepted by some very well informed people, including of course Nelson Mandela.

[Mecky]

As the great and the good, suddenly associate themselves with someone with principles, as they themselves have little outside material accumulation, conveniently forget inconvenient attitudes that interfere with their personal gain plan.

 

 

1) Prior to the US invasion of Iraq, Mandela declared that former President George W. Bush’s primary motive was ‘oil’, while adding that Bush was undermining the UN.

 

“If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings,” Mandela said.

 

2) Mandela spoke out against the invasion of Iraq, as the US prepared its mass-action in 2002, Mandela told Newsweek:

 

“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace.”

 

3) Mandela supported Palestinian Liberation Organization and in 1999, he agreed to be a political mediator between Israel and its neighbors.

 

“Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank,” Mandela stated, according to the Jewish Telegraph Agency’s Suzanne Belling.

 

4) On the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, December 4. 1997, Mandela stated:

 

“The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

 

Would you be saying that if it was anti-muslim and pro-US? I doubt it

[mjw47]

Its as true now as its ever been,just look at what the Israelis and Zionists are doing to the Palestinians,ethnic cleansing and starving the people,anyone who thinks this is right needs to seek help.

 

Who said they thought it was right? What I was commenting on was your stereotyping of an entire race of people as devious & untrustworthy.

Those particular traits belong to many people unfortunately & are not the sole characteristic of any one particular race. Not all Jews are Zionists.

 

You are aware I presume that England was - & occasionally still is - known to many other Nations as 'Perfidious Albion', & with good reason?

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 12:49 ----------

 

Isn't that what they were doing when Saddam invaded Kuwait, gassed and tortured his own people, and bluffed about developing WMD.

 

 

 

It was the ONLY rational policy, full stop, but it isn't evidence that the Americans wanted the oil.

 

 

Saddam was an evil despot without doubt, no one is arguing otherwise.

 

Despite that, the fact remains that thousands of innocent people would still be alive today & thousands more would still be fit & healthy had the Invasion not taken place.

 

Had the only objective been to remove Saddam & his sons, why spill American blood & spend Billions of dollars to do it?

 

Why not send in Special Forces as was done with Osman Bin Laden? Why not use Drones as used to eliminate high ranking Al Qaeda leaders?

 

Maybe because the Oil was the real objective as many believe?

 

And if it wasn't, how come America has ended up with it? Google 'blood & oil' http://www.independent.co.uk/news/

 

Did it all happen as some weird unintended accident?

 

American Big Business including the Military Industrial Complex, the Construction industry & Major Oil all come out making Billions & it was happenstance?

[Harleyman]

Who said they thought it was right? What I was commenting on was your stereotyping of an entire race of people as devious & untrustworthy.

Those particular traits belong to many people unfortunately & are not the sole characteristic of any one particular race. Not all Jews are Zionists.

 

You are aware I presume that England was - & occasionally still is - known to many other Nations as 'Perfidious Albion', & with good reason?

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 12:49 ----------

 

 

 

Saddam was an evil despot without doubt, no one is arguing otherwise.

 

Despite that, the fact remains that thousands of innocent people would still be alive today & thousands more would still be fit & healthy had the Invasion not taken place.

Had the only objective been to remove Saddam & his sons, why spill American blood & spend Billions of dollars to do it?

 

Why not send in Special Forces as was done with Osman Bin Laden? Why not use Drones as used to eliminate high ranking Al Qaeda leaders?

 

Maybe because the Oil was the real objective as many believe?

 

And if it wasn't, how come America has ended up with it? Google 'blood & oil' http://www.independent.co.uk/news/

 

Did it all happen as some weird unintended accident?

 

American Big Business including the Military Industrial Complex, the Construction industry & Major Oil all come out making Billions & it was happenstance?

 

 

 

A presumption that might be true or just as likely untrue since events in the middle east would have taken place anyway even if Saddam had remained in power. Iraq was ruled by a dynasty of Sunnis, many in the ruling party relatives of Saddam while to the south were millions of Iraqis who were Shia and who had no love for Saddam or his regime. At the end of the first Gulf war they were more than ready to join the Coalition forces had the Coalition decided to get rid of Saddam at that time. Then to the north there were the Kurds who had always wanted to break away. After Saddam's use of chemical weapons against them earlier they must have been ready to seize any opportunity to declare independence.

 

Your apparent assumption that under Saddam Iraq was a more or less stable country kept in order by a despot isn't as certain as you seem to think.

 

I'm only guessing of course but my assumption is that after Egypt and Libya Iraq would have been the next country to break out into a civil war. Syria under Assad was also a country ruled by a despot but look what the situation is today. So it might just have been that millions of Iraqis would be dead or exiled by now since Saddam like Assad would have used every means at his disposal to retain power.

 

Another thought. Whether you like it or not big business and the military industrial complex keep millions in jobs not just here but all over the world.

They exist because there is a necessity for them just like the movie and entertainment industries. Not very many of the millions who draw a paycheck every month, enjoy the good things in life think much about the moral issues involved and that's the way it is.

 

China and Russia have their own business empires and military industrial complexes and there are other countries waiting in the wings to join them such as India and Brazil, perhaps in the long distant future even Africa (if that continent can ever drag itself out of it's internal strifes) Empires come and Empires go. Europe had it's time which is now long done with but it may well in the future as Giant Europa emerge once again more powerful and influential than anyone could imagine

[angos]

 

Saddam was an evil despot without doubt, no one is arguing otherwise.

 

Despite that, the fact remains that thousands of innocent people would still be alive today & thousands more would still be fit & healthy had the Invasion not taken place.

 

 

This is clearly something you can't know, just like I can't know that one of the people that died would have caused the deaths of millions of innocent people if he had lived.

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 18:08 ----------

 

 

American Big Business including the Military Industrial Complex, the Construction industry & Major Oil all come out making Billions & it was happenstance?

 

How much did the war cost the USA and how much money have they made out of Iraqis oil.

 

My understanding was that the troops only stayed after the war to prevent civil war.

[Harleyman]

Well I wouldn't say they are here, in the documentaries I've seen, they did compliment him a great deal, but didn't fail to mention some of his weaknesses.

 

I've forgotten the name of the man interviewed on the radio, that is associated with the film biography, but he said that Nelson Mandela emphasised that he didn't want to be portrayed as a saint, and acknowledged that he had been far from perfect especially in his early life.

 

I feel he had so many good and remarkable qualities.

I really do admire him, and hope those great qualities ( especially his ability to forgive and not carry resentment) will continue to inspire the young and be recognised, without necessarily putting him on a pedestal and making out he was perfect, because few people are, if any.

 

Maybe here it's different then. We have Jessie Jackson and the Reverend Al Sharpton ever ready to emerge from the woodwork and start throwing around accusations of racism and bias at the slightest provocation and it's bad for the media because so many tend to believe them and then they lose viewer ratings which eventually effects their ability to earn needed money from advertising.

 

Ever watched any American TV channel for any length of time? There's a commercial break every five minutes

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 18:29 ----------

 

Who said they thought it was right? What I was commenting on was your stereotyping of an entire race of people as devious & untrustworthy.

Those particular traits belong to many people unfortunately & are not the sole characteristic of any one particular race. Not all Jews are Zionists.

 

You are aware I presume that England was - & occasionally still is - known to many other Nations as 'Perfidious Albion', & with good reason?

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 12:49 ----------

 

 

 

Saddam was an evil despot without doubt, no one is arguing otherwise.

 

Despite that, the fact remains that thousands of innocent people would still be alive today & thousands more would still be fit & healthy had the Invasion not taken place.

 

Had the only objective been to remove Saddam & his sons, why spill American blood & spend Billions of dollars to do it?

 

Why not send in Special Forces as was done with Osman Bin Laden? Why not use Drones as used to eliminate high ranking Al Qaeda leaders?

 

Maybe because the Oil was the real objective as many believe?

 

And if it wasn't, how come America has ended up with it? Google 'blood & oil' http://www.independent.co.uk/news/

 

Did it all happen as some weird unintended accident?

 

American Big Business including the Military Industrial Complex, the Construction industry & Major Oil all come out making Billions & it was happenstance?

 

Special Forces could never have eliminated Saddam. You're talking here about a country's leader surrounded by very well armed and trained guards, a government composed of many of his relatives with a big army and air force at it's disposal. Much different than some individual with no political power holed up in a compound.

 

As for the use of drones. The technology wasnt that developed back then as it is today and killing Saddam with a drone strike even had it been possible wouldn't have been the slightest use since as I mentioned earlier he had relatives in government as well as top ranking members of his military forces who would have just assumed power in his place

 

---------- Post added 10-12-2013 at 18:41 ----------

 

Its as true now as its ever been,just look at what the Israelis and Zionists are doing to the Palestinians,ethnic cleansing and starving the people,anyone who thinks this is right needs to seek help.

 

Perhaps if hezbollah and hamas stopped the practice of smuggling in arms hidden with shipments of food that might help improve the lot of the Palestinians but they wont. They insist on continuing a useless war that they can never hope to win and care little of the misery that goes with it.

 

Dont blame the Zionists... the real enemies of the Palestinians are Hebollah and Hamas