Overlooked Mandella's opinions on the USA and Israel

[mjw47]

I'm happy that you now accept that predicting alternative realities is just fantasy, at least now you might think twice before doing it again when trying to support your stance.

 

 

Who do you think pays most of the tax.

 

 

 

Was this the corrupt police and army that supported Saddam.

 

 

 

You appear to be suffering under a certain misconception. You appear to believe that anyone who holds a differing view to you must debate precisely as you wish them to. It doesn't work like that. Should I, or anyone else for that matter, wish to speculate as to 'might have been's or 'what if's' we shall do so.

Got that? Pal.

 

You are not being serious with the who pays most of the tax remark are you?

 

Tell me, if your income was £2 Billion a year & you paid £20 million tax how would you feel about reducing your income to £20,000 a year & only paying £4,000?

That would work wouldn't it? Your paying less tax, obviously you're paying more percentage wise, but hey what about the poor guy paying millions? How's he gonna keep himself in super yachts?

 

'Was this the corrupt police & army that supported Saddam?'

 

Yes, that's them, the one's who were in situ & had administrative & local knowledge.

The one's who the British military advised the US military to retain. They are also the one's that the Americans have since admitted should have been retained to prevent the chaos we now have.

 

They did not all love Saddam you know. Despots have a way of obtaining loyalty by fear. It's not allway's the kind of loyalty upon which you can rely in times of trouble.

 

You haven't been following the story too closely have you?

[Electerrific]

Gandhi and his pacifism is another myth ,he actively encouraged the British to recruit Indians in Natal into the army during the Zulu war. He argued that Indians should support the war efforts in order to legitimize their claims to full citizenship.

The Anglo-Zulu war of 1879? Ghandi was 10.

[mjw47]

Harleyman.

Does 'doing the right thing' necessarily always conflict with the national interest?

 

Obviously not. Retaining close ties with nations who share a history & language with you makes blindingly obvious sense.

Stick together, trade together, occasionally fight together, but only if it is in the short or long term interest of each country.

 

Thatcher had to persuade Reagan to allow Britain to use the Ascension Islands during the Falklands war. Despite the fact that the British handed them over to the US in the first place.

Should that particular conflict kick off again there is no guarantee that the US will side with the UK again.

 

It will depend entirely on what is in Americas interest at that time.

 

You & I have debated before & you know my views on politicians. I believe that most of them, not all, but a comfortable majority, are self serving, greedy, duplicitous hypocrites who are corrupt to a lesser or greater degree.

 

Now I have held those views for many years, right back to the late 60s early 70s. Over the years certain friends & acquaintances have held opposing views & we have had lively debates, usually ending in an agreement to differ, as most debates tend to.

 

Lately however that particular argument has not arisen. The turning point being the expenses scandal.

52% of MP's including our glorious Leader Dave, were forced to return expenses. A few scapegoats were offered up for sacrifice & did Jail time. A local Rotherham MP is about to be sentenced.

 

Since the war no British Government has ever received 50% of the votes cast. Harold Mcmillan gained the most with 49% Tony Blair the lowest with 35%, Cameron got 36%. This is somewhat strange as Blair had a majority whilst Cameron required a coalition.

 

What a wonderful voting system we have in this country!

 

Anyway, my point is that even MP's themselves must agree that 52% is a pretty impressive figure, bearing in mind that it only comprised the ones who were caught out & that the scam had been going on for years.

 

The reason that I've brought this up is that you need to take into consideration the fact that Government decisions are made by those same self serving, greedy, etc etc people.

 

Not only that, but the people who have reached the level where they are decision makers are the ones who have fought their way to the top of the greasy pole.

 

Politics is a dirty business at times & the people at the top are the most devious & Machiavellian of them all.

 

To believe, as you appear to, that these people somehow transform & come over all saintlike when making international policy is frankly nonsense. They act, as always, out of self interest which sometimes happens coincidentally to be the right thing to do. That's all it is though, just a happy coincident.

 

Now that may appear to be a little on the cynical side, but that's the way it appears to me & if you go along with that view it does tend to explain a lot of what goes on in the world.

 

Thankfully not all powerful people are the same. In fact they're in the process of burying one that wasn't in South Africa at the moment.

 

The main reason such a fuss is being made of Mandela is precisely because his kind are so rare.

[Harleyman]

Harleyman.

Does 'doing the right thing' necessarily always conflict with the national interest?

 

Obviously not. Retaining close ties with nations who share a history & language with you makes blindingly obvious sense.

Stick together, trade together, occasionally fight together, but only if it is in the short or long term interest of each country.

 

Thatcher had to persuade Reagan to allow Britain to use the Ascension Islands during the Falklands war. Despite the fact that the British handed them over to the US in the first place.

Should that particular conflict kick off again there is no guarantee that the US will side with the UK again.

 

It will depend entirely on what is in Americas interest at that time.

 

You & I have debated before & you know my views on politicians. I believe that most of them, not all, but a comfortable majority, are self serving, greedy, duplicitous hypocrites who are corrupt to a lesser or greater degree.

 

Now I have held those views for many years, right back to the late 60s early 70s. Over the years certain friends & acquaintances have held opposing views & we have had lively debates, usually ending in an agreement to differ, as most debates tend to.

 

Lately however that particular argument has not arisen. The turning point being the expenses scandal.

52% of MP's including our glorious Leader Dave, were forced to return expenses. A few scapegoats were offered up for sacrifice & did Jail time. A local Rotherham MP is about to be sentenced.

 

Since the war no British Government has ever received 50% of the votes cast. Harold Mcmillan gained the most with 49% Tony Blair the lowest with 35%, Cameron got 36%. This is somewhat strange as Blair had a majority whilst Cameron required a coalition.

 

What a wonderful voting system we have in this country!

 

Anyway, my point is that even MP's themselves must agree that 52% is a pretty impressive figure, bearing in mind that it only comprised the ones who were caught out & that the scam had been going on for years.

 

The reason that I've brought this up is that you need to take into consideration the fact that Government decisions are made by those same self serving, greedy, etc etc people.

 

Not only that, but the people who have reached the level where they are decision makers are the ones who have fought their way to the top of the greasy pole.

 

Politics is a dirty business at times & the people at the top are the most devious & Machiavellian of them all.

 

To believe, as you appear to, that these people somehow transform & come over all saintlike when making international policy is frankly nonsense. They act, as always, out of self interest which sometimes happens coincidentally to be the right thing to do. That's all it is though, just a happy coincident.

 

Now that may appear to be a little on the cynical side, but that's the way it appears to me & if you go along with that view it does tend to explain a lot of what goes on in the world.

 

Thankfully not all powerful people are the same. In fact they're in the process of burying one that wasn't in South Africa at the moment.

 

The main reason such a fuss is being made of Mandela is precisely because his kind are so rare.

 

mjw47 you have just in a one liner told me much about yourself. An old student radical from the era of "turn on, drop out"

 

I was never part of that. Fate dictated that I was in a far off place doing something much different.

 

I can remember though the demonsrations that took place. Students waving Viet Cong flags and chanting Ho! Ho! Ho Chi Minh. I myself was a recipient of a can of soda pop tossed at me by a middle aged, purple haired, wannnabe radical matron when I and others landed at San Francisco airport in 1968.

 

It was the era of "cops are all pigs" "never trust anyone over 30" and "all politicians are evil, corrupt and self serving"

 

I wouldnt say that all the student radicals were dumb. Many were the spoiled over indulged sons and daughters of the WW2 generation who had intended that their offspring should not experience the shortages that they themselvse had gone through.

 

Many were naive beyond belief in thinking that Ho Chi Minh was some kind of idealistic leader when in fact North Vietnam was an oppressive state in every way. I was unfortunately a wirtness to some of the atrocities that the NVA and the Cong inflicted on any vilagers or villages which showed any reluctance to aid them in hiding weapons or supplying food and even manpower... the Cong were those in particular.

 

For a few years I had photos of those things that had happened but later at my wife's very wise insistance destroyed them in case they got into the hands of our kids.

 

It's very amusing to me that now all those former government hating radicals are these days concerned only with their cholesterol levels, their pensions and if they will have enough to retire and live on. The wheel has come full circle

 

But you mate are a survivor :hihi: Or so I see.

[LeMaquis]

Since the war no British Government has ever received 50% of the votes cast. Harold Mcmillan gained the most with 49% Tony Blair the lowest with 35%, Cameron got 36%. This is somewhat strange as Blair had a majority whilst Cameron required a coalition.

 

What a wonderful voting system we have in this country!

 

Well the Tories had a chance to reform this system by equalising the size of constituencies in proportion to the numbers of constituents. But their own MPs refused to support a deal whereby the Lords would be reformed at the Lib-Dems' request resulting on the Lib-Dems in turn reneging on their promise to support the Tories' plan for constituency reform. The Tories will pay for that at the next election.

[mjw47]

Harleyman.

 

That made me laugh out loud, absolutely brilliant! 'Old Student Radical' that's me alright, spot on.

 

I went to six different schools, four in England, two in Ireland. The first one I attended in Ireland I went to on three separate occasions. Admittedly the second one I attended in Ireland which I left at 16 in order to return to England was a Technical College. Would that qualify me as a student radical?

 

Upon return to England I started work immediately in the building trade. Had several jobs after that, was never out of work ( didn't know anyone who was back then ) finally found a job I liked when I was 19 & did OK after that.

 

Had no interest in politics whatsoever, thought both bearded lefties & Young Conservatives were equal in that they were both a right bunch of pathetic weirdos.

 

My main interests were chasing young women, drinking with my mates, the music of the day & watching the Blades on Saturday ( used to watch the other lot as well as I wasn't too discerning in my choice of friends ) & playing football on Sundays.

 

Only developed a passing interest in politics later on & I read a lot.

 

Oh & the job I eventually enjoyed started off with me working 'on the tools' but progressed to sales then branch management then senior management & finally MD of my own company.

 

The job entailed constant contact with the police some of whom became & remain friends.

Some really are pigs though.

 

And as my father & his brother & cousin were all ex military I had no problems with them either.

In fact my father spent a great deal of time on one occasion talking me out of joining up.

 

So your psychological profile was a bit wide of the target there wasn't it?

 

---------- Post added 11-12-2013 at 20:27 ----------

 

Well the Tories had a chance to reform this system by equalising the size of constituencies in proportion to the numbers of constituents. But their own MPs refused to support a deal whereby the Lords would be reformed at the Lib-Dems' request resulting on the Lib-Dems in turn reneging on their promise to support the Tories' plan for constituency reform. The Tories will pay for that at the next election.

 

Which was an opportunity missed in my opinion. The electoral system in this country is ridiculous & the problem is that the only people in a position to change it got where they are by that system.

 

We should reduce the number of MP's to 300 ( were we to copy the proportion of voters to representatives that the US has, we could reduce it to 185 ) & the Lords should be abolished renamed a Senate with the number reduced to 200 with no hereditary privilege.

 

Proportional Representation which is the fairest method of voting should be implemented. It is currently used in Northern Ireland in order to prove fairness after the years of corruption orchestrated by the Unionists.

 

None of that will happen, as the present expensive & unfair methods suit those in power.

[Harleyman]

Harleyman.

Does 'doing the right thing' necessarily always conflict with the national interest?

 

Obviously not. Retaining close ties with nations who share a history & language with you makes blindingly obvious sense.

Stick together, trade together, occasionally fight together, but only if it is in the short or long term interest of each country.

 

Thatcher had to persuade Reagan to allow Britain to use the Ascension Islands during the Falklands war. Despite the fact that the British handed them over to the US in the first place.

Should that particular conflict kick off again there is no guarantee that the US will side with the UK again.

 

It will depend entirely on what is in Americas interest at that time.

 

You & I have debated before & you know my views on politicians. I believe that most of them, not all, but a comfortable majority, are self serving, greedy, duplicitous hypocrites who are corrupt to a lesser or greater degree.

 

Now I have held those views for many years, right back to the late 60s early 70s. Over the years certain friends & acquaintances have held opposing views & we have had lively debates, usually ending in an agreement to differ, as most debates tend to.

 

Lately however that particular argument has not arisen. The turning point being the expenses scandal.

52% of MP's including our glorious Leader Dave, were forced to return expenses. A few scapegoats were offered up for sacrifice & did Jail time. A local Rotherham MP is about to be sentenced.

 

Since the war no British Government has ever received 50% of the votes cast. Harold Mcmillan gained the most with 49% Tony Blair the lowest with 35%, Cameron got 36%. This is somewhat strange as Blair had a majority whilst Cameron required a coalition.

 

What a wonderful voting system we have in this country!

 

Anyway, my point is that even MP's themselves must agree that 52% is a pretty impressive figure, bearing in mind that it only comprised the ones who were caught out & that the scam had been going on for years.

 

The reason that I've brought this up is that you need to take into consideration the fact that Government decisions are made by those same self serving, greedy, etc etc people.

 

Not only that, but the people who have reached the level where they are decision makers are the ones who have fought their way to the top of the greasy pole.

 

Politics is a dirty business at times & the people at the top are the most devious & Machiavellian of them all.

 

To believe, as you appear to, that these people somehow transform & come over all saintlike when making international policy is frankly nonsense. They act, as always, out of self interest which sometimes happens coincidentally to be the right thing to do. That's all it is though, just a happy coincident.

 

Now that may appear to be a little on the cynical side, but that's the way it appears to me & if you go along with that view it does tend to explain a lot of what goes on in the world.

 

Thankfully not all powerful people are the same. In fact they're in the process of burying one that wasn't in South Africa at the moment.

 

The main reason such a fuss is being made of Mandela is precisely because his kind are so rare.

 

You know fior a fact that as a politician he was pristine? You more or less said that about Kennedy. Alarm bells sounding

[angos]

You appear to be suffering under a certain misconception. You appear to believe that anyone who holds a differing view to you must debate precisely as you wish them to.

 

Not at all, you can hold whatever opinion you like, and use what ever fantasy you want to support your stance.

[Harleyman]

Harleyman.

 

That made me laugh out loud, absolutely brilliant! 'Old Student Radical' that's me alright, spot on.

 

I went to six different schools, four in England, two in Ireland. The first one I attended in Ireland I went to on three separate occasions. Admittedly the second one I attended in Ireland which I left at 16 in order to return to England was a Technical College. Would that qualify me as a student radical?

 

Upon return to England I started work immediately in the building trade. Had several jobs after that, was never out of work ( didn't know anyone who was back then ) finally found a job I liked when I was 19 & did OK after that.

 

Had no interest in politics whatsoever, thought both bearded lefties & Young Conservatives were equal in that they were both a right bunch of pathetic weirdos.

 

My main interests were chasing young women, drinking with my mates, the music of the day & watching the Blades on Saturday ( used to watch the other lot as well as I wasn't too discerning in my choice of friends ) & playing football on Sundays.

 

Only developed a passing interest in politics later on & I read a lot.

 

Oh & the job I eventually enjoyed started off with me working 'on the tools' but progressed to sales then branch management then senior management & finally MD of my own company.

 

The job entailed constant contact with the police some of whom became & remain friends.

Some really are pigs though.

 

And as my father & his brother & cousin were all ex military I had no problems with them either.

In fact my father spent a great deal of time on one occasion talking me out of joining up.

 

So your psychological profile was a bit wide of the target there wasn't it?

 

---------- Post added 11-12-2013 at 20:27 ----------

 

 

Which was an opportunity missed in my opinion. The electoral system in this country is ridiculous & the problem is that the only people in a position to change it got where they are by that system.

 

We should reduce the number of MP's to 300 ( were we to copy the proportion of voters to representatives that the US has, we could reduce it to 185 ) & the Lords should be abolished renamed a Senate with the number reduced to 200 with no hereditary privilege.

 

Proportional Representation which is the fairest method of voting should be implemented. It is currently used in Northern Ireland in order to prove fairness after the years of corruption orchestrated by the Unionists.

 

None of that will happen, as the present expensive & unfair methods suit those in power.

 

After monkeying around with redrawing the electoral districts it's now come to the situation that it was all a waste of time. My district was heavily Republican for decades. The same Repubican Congressman was sent back to Washington every election. Then the district was chopped up and ours joined to other disrticts that were mosltly Democrat so now we have Democrat Congresswoman who will no doubt end up like the former Republican, being returned to Washington every time there's an election.

 

Tea Party Congress persons will also continue to be relected because their districts all vote far right Tea Party.

 

The system isn't that perfect at all. The other problem is low voter turnout.

There should be a law that every taxpaying citizen must cast a vote just as every citizen is obliged to perform jury duty when required. No excuse for shirking one's civic duty

 

I would like to see a President elected by popular vote, that is by the number of votes cast and not voted by the Electoral College

[mjw47]

Not at all, you can hold whatever opinion you like, and use what ever fantasy you want to support your stance.

 

Well, thank you very much. I'm honoured. Any comments on the other points? You remember tax contribution & Law & Order in Iraq?

 

---------- Post added 11-12-2013 at 23:22 ----------

 

After monkeying around with redrawing the electoral districts it's now come to the situation that it was all a waste of time. My district was heavily Republican for decades. The same Repubican Congressman was sent back to Washington every election. Then the district was chopped up and ours joined to other disrticts that were mosltly Democrat so now we have Democrat Congresswoman who will no doubt end up like the former Republican, being returned to Washington every time there's an election.

 

Tea Party Congress persons will also continue to be relected because their districts all vote far right Tea Party.

 

The system isn't that perfect at all. The other problem is low voter turnout.

There should be a law that every taxpaying citizen must cast a vote just as every citizen is obliged to perform jury duty when required. No excuse for shirking one's civic duty

 

I would like to see a President elected by popular vote, that is by the number of votes cast and not voted by the Electoral College

 

Never said the American system is perfect, just better than ours. Ours is so crap I have stopped voting. Lived in the same house for 32 years & the same party has been returned every time. What's the point?

 

Anyway, this student radical thing, Do you think I should give it a go? Never taken drugs ( apart from prescription ) booze is my preferred poison - probably the Irish connection - could give Mary Jane a go I suppose. Have to be in cakes though, never smoked.

 

Still have a full head of hair ( grey/white ) could do that ponytail thing & grow a beard maybe. Although last time I had a beard, in the 70's I thought I looked like Tom Selleck the wife thought I looked like Peter Sutcliffe, so maybe not.