L00b Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 If they could sort the power storage/range problems, one of our family cars would be full EV, to be used for vicinity trips (outings within 20 miles or so, i.e. the most intensive/frequent use for a family car). Then again, they've been at it at least 20 years (I test-drove a full EV Clio and a full EV 106 around that time, was 1994 or 1996, can't remember exactly), so I'm not exactly holding my breath. Very little to "maintain" compared to a conventional car (brake pads, tyres, wipers...and the batteries, depending on tech/useful life), more torque than you know what to do with (Hills? What hills? ) and less than negligible air/noise pollution during its useful life. What's not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ear8dmg Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 OK - it's a bit rediculous comparing a top of the range Toyota Prius with a Kia Rio or something. How about a real apples to apples comparison: Honda Jazz 1.4 ES CVT (non Hybrid), £15,995 list, 51mpg combined 10k miles @ 130.9p = £1166.83 pa, VED £105 pa (£1271.83 total) Honda Jazz 1.3 IMA HS (Hybrid), £17,650 list, 63 mpg combined 10k miles@ 130.9p = £944.58, VED £10 pa (£954.58 total) We'll assume the two have the same servicing costs (very similar engine and transmission) and actually achieve the same proportion of their official figures. so £317.25 difference per annum. £1655 list price difference. 5.21 years to make up the difference in list price, assuming you keep them indefinitely. Factor in depreciation and I would suggest it'll take even less time to make up the difference. It's not much different from petrol vs diesel really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euclid Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 What is the premium for buying a hybrid? 10k or more? So assuming you make about 20mpg more than the standard version, how far do you have to drive to break even? A gallon is about £5.85 at the moment, so relative cost per mile is £0.078 cheaper. It costs about 8 pence less per mile. So to make back that £10,000 initial purchase premium you have to drive 128,000 miles... This ignores the saving in tax though, which might actually be more significant than the petrol saving. Even saving £250 a year though, that's 40 years to break even! Split it between the two and you've got 20 years of tax and 64,000 miles to break even. It just doesn't look like a way of saving money at the moment, so any argument about good mpg is flawed due to the high cost of the vehicle in the first place. You have raised some good points as you always do in your posts....but what a load of tosh....a diesel costs far more than a relative petrol version but people buy them because they prefer them..and the residuals are far better,same as a hybrid..all vehicles will have a premium attached,..the better the vehicle,the more the premium...the more money you lose when it comes to selling,I am not a champion of Hybrids just giving a honest opinion as an owner of two so far plus Diesels and petrol powered cars.The other important thing for me is they have auto (CVT) transmissions ( as have most of my previous cars,including diesel ones) ,if they did not..i wouldn't buy one If i was worried about the overall cost i'd keep using my bus pass,i am not so nerdy as i would sit down and work all this out..but good on you for doing so... just out of curiosity Cyclone..What car do you drive??? .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg16 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 in Canada the prius is the ultimate taxi averaging around 350k in its lifetime and still going strong. that's practically the only car they use as a taxi . there are fleets of them over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carosio Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I have owned my Gen3 Toyota Prius T Spirit (hybrid) for 18 months now,best mpg i have achieved is 75.5 mpg both on a run to the east coast, locally to Worksop and from the garage a few miles up the road too...in heavy traffic the engine stops and it runs on electric only,till the battery needs topping up,then the engine fires up for a short while...on top of this it is whisper quiet,automatic,road tax exempt,very advanced technologically,pretty quick when the power button is pressed in...1.8 fuel injected engine coupled with two electric motors,...and a five year warranty..would i buy another Hybrid..definately..would i buy another noisy diesel..NO Wonder what the depreciation is over 3/5 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anywebsite Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 If they could sort the power storage/range problems, one of our family cars would be full EV, to be used for vicinity trips (outings within 20 miles or so, i.e. the most intensive/frequent use for a family car). Then again, they've been at it at least 20 years (I test-drove a full EV Clio and a full EV 106 around that time, was 1994 or 1996, can't remember exactly), so I'm not exactly holding my breath. Very little to "maintain" compared to a conventional car (brake pads, tyres, wipers...and the batteries, depending on tech/useful life), more torque than you know what to do with (Hills? What hills? ) and less than negligible air/noise pollution during its useful life. What's not to like? It'll need some revolutionary new battery technology to improve the range on battery powered cars. The batteries haven't changed much in 20 years, so you still get the same problem of them being too heavy & not storing enough power. Hybrids are starting to look useful though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
convert Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 You have raised some good points as you always do in your posts....but what a load of tosh....a diesel costs far more than a relative petrol version but people buy them because they prefer them..and the residuals are far better,same as a hybrid..all vehicles will have a premium attached,..the better the vehicle,the more the premium...the more money you lose when it comes to selling,I am not a champion of Hybrids just giving a honest opinion as an owner of two so far plus Diesels and petrol powered cars.The other important thing for me is they have auto (CVT) transmissions ( as have most of my previous cars,including diesel ones) ,if they did not..i wouldn't buy one If i was worried about the overall cost i'd keep using my bus pass,i am not so nerdy as i would sit down and work all this out..but good on you for doing so... just out of curiosity Cyclone..What car do you drive??? .... Not all of them have a conventional CVT. Toyota doesn't actually use a conventional gearbox, it uses a Power Split Device (PSD) See this link. http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ I've had my Auris estate since the send of September, and I've put on about 4500 miles. Averaging around 50mpg. Only reason I chose it (it's a company car) is the savings i'll make on income tax. Seems to do the job OK, plenty of toys, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 It'll need some revolutionary new battery technology to improve the range on battery powered cars. The batteries haven't changed much in 20 years, so you still get the same problem of them being too heavy & not storing enough power. Hybrids are starting to look useful though.Not that revolutionary. Back then (mid-90s), the batteries in those EV cars I tried were still lead acid. 900 kgs of Clio and probably 400+ kg of batteries occupying the entire floor pan of the car, with a useful range around 60 miles on a full charge 'More modern' (old tech in portable electronics terms, but...) lithium-based batteries are a marked improvement in power-to-weight ratio and, unsurprisingly, are to be found in hybrid cars. So battery tech is coming along...but damn it's taking its time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thats assuming you buy a run-of the mill not-so eco car. Lets compare Apples with Apples here, you'd go for a very economical car which would return roughly as good mpg and be in one of the lowest tax brackets. How much longer would the payback time be if you were in the £20 or £30 a year tax bracket?? Whats the residual costs, the maintenance costs, the depreciation going to be. Then don't forget alot of people buy the car on finance, so you've got 10k plus interest extra to pay off on the car. All good points, I was trying to be as favourable as possible, instead of making the comparison even harder. ear8dmg points out that at 1.5 years old there is no resale bonus anymore, so assuming that you don't keep the car for 120k miles or whatever, you won't recoup any of the extra purchase price when you sell. Buying 2nd hand, at 1.5 years old though might drastically change the numbers. ---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 07:34 ---------- You have raised some good points as you always do in your posts....but what a load of tosh....a diesel costs far more than a relative petrol version but people buy them because they prefer them..and the residuals are far better,same as a hybrid..all vehicles will have a premium attached,..the better the vehicle,the more the premium...the more money you lose when it comes to selling,I am not a champion of Hybrids just giving a honest opinion as an owner of two so far plus Diesels and petrol powered cars.The other important thing for me is they have auto (CVT) transmissions ( as have most of my previous cars,including diesel ones) ,if they did not..i wouldn't buy one If i was worried about the overall cost i'd keep using my bus pass,i am not so nerdy as i would sit down and work all this out..but good on you for doing so... just out of curiosity Cyclone..What car do you drive??? .... BMW Z4M and a Fiesta 1.4 People who buy diesel generally do it for a reason, it used to be economy and cheaper fuel, it can still be economy, but you do really have to look closely at the numbers to make sure it's worth it. I don't think many people buy them because they prefer the noise and the way they shoot off the starting line. Different people are claiming different things about resale values though, do hybrids sell on at a premium, or do they lose it all... An important question. If the reason to buy a hybrid is "prefering it", then I've no comment to make, I'm only commenting on the argument about their efficiency making them a sensible way to save money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ear8dmg Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 A Prius definitely has 2nd hand premium. Have you seem their resale values? Makes them quite a poor 2nd hand buy IMO, at least if you're looking to save money. More recent Honda hybrids don't command the same sort of resale values. I must admit, I bought one because it was cheaper than similarly sized Kia / Hyundai diesels I was considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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