Bomb explodes in N Ireland

[Pessimistic1]

Both Islamic and Catholic terrorism are motivated by religion. But they are both carried out for different reasons.

[melthebell]

Sorry, it's just not the same at all.

 

These terrorists are

 

[a] White

 

Christian

 

[c] Actually blow things up

 

Completely different.

i dont get your point in regards to the post you quoted

[mjw47]

.

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2013 at 08:21 ----------

 

 

That's an extremely ignorant comment. Saying that religion plays only an incidental role in Northern Irish politics is like saying race played only a minor role in apartheid. Religion is the base of the conflict in Ireland as society is divided along religious grounds.

 

Really? Well as I have actually lived in Ireland & know for a fact that religion plays no part whatsoever in the Republic, why do you think there is such a huge difference in the North?

 

Religion is an easy identifier yes but that's basically it. No doubt there are some religious bigots but no more than you find anywhere.

 

Why do Unionists have no particular problem with Poles, Italians or Spaniards. Also why is no one attempting to convert anyone?

 

I repeat, it's about power it's about who gets to call the political shots & which capitol city is in overall charge London Or Dublin.

[boyfriday]

Really? Well as I have actually lived in Ireland & know for a fact that religion plays no part whatsoever in the Republic, why do you think there is such a huge difference in the North?

 

Religion is an easy identifier yes but that's basically it. No doubt there are some religious bigots but no more than you find anywhere.

 

Why do Unionists have no particular problem with Poles, Italians or Spaniards. Also why is no one attempting to convert anyone?

 

I repeat, it's about power it's about who gets to call the political shots & which capitol city is in overall charge London Or Dublin.

 

I think you're labouring a discrete point mjw and we're crossing purposes. The (broad) badge of affiliation amongst the groups is religious.

 

Personally I dont believe either side particularly follows a religious code as a moral yardstick, or is trying to convert anyone, but culturally people tend to identify themselves as Catholic or Protestant.

[townblade]

Both Islamic and Catholic terrorism are motivated by religion. But they are both carried out for different reasons.

 

The IRA was, and some dissidents still are, at war with Britain. The Islamists are at war with all none Muslims.

[mjw47]

I think you're labouring a discrete point mjw and we're crossing purposes. The (broad) badge of affiliation amongst the groups is religious.

 

Personally I dont believe either side particularly follows a religious code as a moral yardstick, or is trying to convert anyone, but culturally people tend to identify themselves as Catholic or Protestant.

 

Yes, culturally they do but my point is that it is not the main argument. If all the Catholics in Northern Ireland converted to Protestantism would the so called Loyalists be happy to join the Republic?

 

If all the so called Loyalists converted to Catholicism would the Nationalists be happy to remain part of the UK?

 

Unless you can answer yes to both of the above then it is blindingly obvious that religion is as I stated is not really the problem & thinking it is only confuses an already confusing -for outsiders- problem.

[SevenRivers]

Well lets hear your version of truth then? I notice you haven't pointed out what you consider to be "biased and full of half truths"

 

Name them.

 

Seeing as you asked so nicely. I agree with some of the stuff in your post mjw47, which I've cut out just to pick up on the points I think are wrong.

 

An earlier poster mentioned democracy. Northern Ireland & Democracy are an oxymoron. The Province was formed by gerrymandering a false majority in order to ensure Unionist power.

Northern Ireland took a democratic decision to break away from the Republic, and join the UK. Nobody forced them to do that, they could have stayed part of the Republic had they wished. But the people of Northern Ireland of the time were culturally, religiously and politically closer to the UK than the Republic.

 

There has been gerrymandering in NI (the process of moving ward boundaries for political advantage), but that's not how the province was formed.

 

They refer to it as Ulster, there are nine counties in Ulster, only six in the Province. They call it Northern Ireland, if you stand in the most northerly place in Ireland you are stood in the vicinity of Malin Head which is in the Province of Ulster & the Republic of Ireland.

 

So Ulster lies in both Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I don't see the relevance.

 

The Anglo-Irish agreement has decided the issue. Unfortunately it will probably take anything up to 40 or 50 years but a United Ireland is now inevitable.

The fact that you say unfortunately tells us you are biased in favour of unification, which isn't what the people of NI want.

 

Opinion poll indicates NI voters would reject Irish unit - from Feb 2013

 

Poll: Just 3.8% want a united Ireland now - from Sep 2013

 

Ireland will be United because of demographics, the older population is mainly Unionist the younger population Nationalist. In 2020 9if things continue as at present Nationalists will be in the majority. It will not happen immediately after that but after a few years.

 

Ireland will also be United because Britain wants rid. Northern Ireland is a Political, Moral & Financial embarrassment to the UK.

 

The present subsidy is £12 Billion a year & we can no longer afford it.

 

Scotland also get a subsidy, but lots of people want Scotland to stay in the UK. Most of the UK is subsidised by the south east of England, so the subsidy isn't a factor. I don't think most people see NI as any kind of embarrassment. They're an equal part of the UK along with England, Wales and Scotland and are welcome to be as long as they want to be.

 

I've posted some links to polls above (I note your lack of links to the demographics argument), the demographics have a massive majority to overcome, particularly in such a short time in the 6 years to 2020 by which time you're claiming there will be a majority of Republicans.

 

Ireland is still a country deeply influenced by Catholicism. Young people growing up in NI are growing up in a largely secular UK, I don't think the young of NI will want to shackle themselves to a culturally and politically regressive (by UK standards) Republic of Ireland, with it's history of covered up child abuse in the catholic church, the scandal of the Magdalene houses and children snatched from their mothers, and more recently, a mother who died after being refused an abortion even on sound medical grounds.

[melthebell]

theres also been a pipe bomb attack on alliance headquarters

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25379319

 

and a man freed without charge after shots were fired at police vehicles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25375264

 

still seems to be happening, all this violence

[boyfriday]

Yes, culturally they do but my point is that it is not the main argument. If all the Catholics in Northern Ireland converted to Protestantism would the so called Loyalists be happy to join the Republic?

 

If all the so called Loyalists converted to Catholicism would the Nationalists be happy to remain part of the UK?

 

Unless you can answer yes to both of the above then it is blindingly obvious that religion is as I stated is not really the problem & thinking it is only confuses an already confusing -for outsiders- problem.

 

Interesting notion, but I didnt suggest religion was the main argument, like most conflicts where religion's involved it's merely used as a cloak to justify other grievances which usually relate to power, influence and money.

[janie48]

 

Ireland is still a country deeply influenced by Catholicism. Young people growing up in NI are growing up in a largely secular UK, I don't think the young of NI will want to shackle themselves to a culturally and politically regressive (by UK standards) Republic of Ireland, with it's history of covered up child abuse in the catholic church, the scandal of the Magdalene houses and children snatched from their mothers, and more recently, a mother who died after being refused an abortion even on sound medical grounds.

What about many other scandals and terrible injustices such as the forced migration of masses of children being shipped off to Australia from Children's Homes, and the terrible way unmarried mothers were treated in mother and baby homes in the UK up until the 60s/70s?

Then there's the appalling history of the workhouses etc ? All that is fairly recent history. Did all that only happen in Ireland?

 

My point being, that focusing on the social injustices of the past, are never going to be of any use in solving those divisions in Northern Ireland.