Bomb explodes in N Ireland

[natjack]

They're doing it because one group is Catholic and the other Protestant and all the attendant reasons that relationship often creates friction.

 

Interesting notion, but I didnt suggest religion was the main argument, like most conflicts where religion's involved it's merely used as a cloak to justify other grievances which usually relate to power, influence and money.

So what did you mean when you posted the first comment? It looks almost like you really thought that, and now in the light of refutations from more knowledgeable people, you're introducing other reasons.

[LeMaquis]

Yes, culturally they do but my point is that it is not the main argument. If all the Catholics in Northern Ireland converted to Protestantism would the so called Loyalists be happy to join the Republic?

 

If all the so called Loyalists converted to Catholicism would the Nationalists be happy to remain part of the UK?

 

Unless you can answer yes to both of the above then it is blindingly obvious that religion is as I stated is not really the problem & thinking it is only confuses an already confusing -for outsiders- problem.

 

What the chuff are you on about? You introduce some impossible hypotheses to prove an argument? You haven't got a bloody clue.

 

The fact is that there has been a war going on for decades between Catholics who want to be part of Eire and Protestants who want to remain part of the UK. A load of what ifs doesn't change that.

[Harleyman]

My grandfather was born in Ireland when it was all part of the U.K. Although Catholic he grew up in a predominantly Protestant area of the north and then moved to Belfast.

 

It wasnt quite like Missisippi back then. Everyone looked the same, spoke the same but you were categorized by your religion. A Scots or English name defined you as Protestant while a real Irish name like Ryan or O'connor immediately identified you as a Catholic or as the Orangemen so qaintly referred to as a "Taig"

 

My grandfather worked as a pipe fitter on the Titanic while she was being constructed at Harland and Wolf's shipyard in Belfast. The way of hiring help was that those who were identified as Protestant were hired first and if there were still any openings after that then they were open to Catholics.

 

N.I was a province with a society of first and second class citizens and neighborhoods segregated by religion. A kind of an all white Mississippi.

 

This was only a continuation of the earlier "pale" system where enclaves of so called Anglo-Irish lived in their own communities around Dublin and away from the so called "ignorant" Irish Catholic peasantry

 

The IRA came into being because like every other radical/ revolutionary movement societal conditions and colonial oppression created it.

 

N.I became part of the UK but it was a time bomb waiting to go off sooner or later. It should have been under the direct administration of London from the start instead of being governed by a bunch of local narrow minded religious bigots. History might have been a bit different

[boyfriday]

So what did you mean when you posted the first comment? It looks almost like you really thought that, and now in the light of refutations from more knowledgeable people, you're introducing other reasons.

 

Sorry but you've totally lost me.

[angos]

What the chuff are you on about? You introduce some impossible hypotheses to prove an argument? You haven't got a bloody clue.

 

The fact is that there has been a war going on for decades between Catholics who want to be part of Eire and Protestants who want to remain part of the UK. A load of what ifs doesn't change that.

 

I'm almost certain that mjw47 was pointing out rightly that for the most part it isn't a religious conflict, its a cultural conflict.

[Harleyman]

What the chuff are you on about? You introduce some impossible hypotheses to prove an argument? You haven't got a bloody clue.

 

The fact is that there has been a war going on for decades between Catholics who want to be part of Eire and Protestants who want to remain part of the UK. A load of what ifs doesn't change that.

 

Knackers! The trouuble that started back in the 1960s was over the second class status of the Catholic minority. Religion was nowhere near the whole part of it

You haven't got a bloody clue either

[boyfriday]

I'm almost certain that mjw47 was pointing out rightly that for the most part it isn't a religious conflict, its a cultural conflict.

 

Indeed but it's a cultural conflict where the protagonists align themselves based on religious affiliation, rather than scripture.

[melthebell]

Indeed but it's a cultural conflict where the protagonists align themselves based on religious affiliation, rather than scripture.

i think the point MJ was making is we on the outside classify it simply (as one lot of religion versus another), but in reality theres more to it than that

[mjw47]

Seeing as you asked so nicely. I agree with some of the stuff in your post mjw47, which I've cut out just to pick up on the points I think are wrong.

 

 

Northern Ireland took a democratic decision to break away from the Republic, and join the UK. Nobody forced them to do that, they could have stayed part of the Republic had they wished. But the people of Northern Ireland of the time were culturally, religiously and politically closer to the UK than the Republic.

 

There has been gerrymandering in NI (the process of moving ward boundaries for political advantage), but that's not how the province was formed.

 

Northern Ireland did not take a democratic decision to break away from the Republic ( it wasn't a Republic at that time anyway but that isn't the point ). Ireland was a single entity, one country, therefore Northern Ireland didn't have a mandate to separate itself from the rest of the island. Northern Ireland came about because of the threat of violence from the Unionist protestant people backed by powerful politicians with a vested interest to protect.

There are city's in England with foreign ethnic majorities, does that give them the right to cede from England & give their loyalties & tax revenues to foreign Governments?

 

So Ulster lies in both Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I don't see the relevance.

 

The relevance is that it shows up the frailty of the 'separate state' nonsense

The area is part of Ireland, simple as that. They can't come up with another name because they know how ridiculous it would be. Therefore they wind up with completely inaccurate names for the area. Ulster, when it's actually two thirds of Ulster. Northern Ireland when the northernmost part is in the Republic.

 

 

The fact that you say unfortunately tells us you are biased in favour of unification, which isn't what the people of NI want.

 

I am in favour of a United Ireland.

 

Opinion poll indicates NI voters would reject Irish unit - from Feb 2013

 

Poll: Just 3.8% want a united Ireland now - from Sep 2013

 

 

 

Scotland also get a subsidy, but lots of people want Scotland to stay in the UK. Most of the UK is subsidised by the south east of England, so the subsidy isn't a factor. I don't think most people see NI as any kind of embarrassment. They're an equal part of the UK along with England, Wales and Scotland and are welcome to be as long as they want to be.

 

I've posted some links to polls above (I note your lack of links to the demographics argument), the demographics have a massive majority to overcome, particularly in such a short time in the 6 years to 2020 by which time you're claiming there will be a majority of Republicans.

 

Ireland is still a country deeply influenced by Catholicism. Young people growing up in NI are growing up in a largely secular UK, I don't think the young of NI will want to shackle themselves to a culturally and politically regressive (by UK standards) Republic of Ireland, with it's history of covered up child abuse in the catholic church, the scandal of the Magdalene houses and children snatched from their mothers, and more recently, a mother who died after being refused an abortion even on sound medical grounds.

 

The demographics exist in a Nationalist majority is guaranteed in the future. That will not bring about an immediate unification but it is inevitable in the end.

 

As to ' Ireland is still a country deeply influenced by Catholicism' how familiar are you with the country?

Your comment is at least 15 years out of date & the church is becoming more & more irrelevant as each year goes by.

Having said which, it really has no bearing on matters does it? This country has an Established church which isn't the church of many citizens & we manage to survive.

[boyfriday]

i think the point MJ was making is we on the outside classify it simply (as one lot of religion versus another), but in reality theres more to it than that

 

Thought we'd already developed that idea mel..there are rarely such things as pure 'religious conflicts', or to put it another way if we're going to say the Irish situation isn't about religion we might as well say the same about our conflicts with Muslims in the middle east and their reactions to it.