Bomb explodes in N Ireland

[mjw47]

What the chuff are you on about? You introduce some impossible hypotheses to prove an argument? You haven't got a bloody clue.

 

The fact is that there has been a war going on for decades between Catholics who want to be part of Eire and Protestants who want to remain part of the UK. A load of what ifs doesn't change that.

 

Calm down you foolish person I repeat for the hard of understanding. The argument between Nationalists & Unionists is about ownership of the six counties.

It is about whether the capital is London or Dublin. It is about whether the system of Government is a Monarchy or a Republic. It is about whether the country is United or continues to be divided.

 

All of the above are more important than religion, do you understand that?

 

The fact that one side happens to be Catholic & the other Protestant doesn't help matters but the main points of contention are as above.

 

Religion is used as an easy identifier,because Catholics tend to be Nationalist & Protestants tend to be Unionist. It does not mean however that Catholics are ALWAYS Nationalist nor does it mean ALL Protestants are Unionist.

 

Do you understand that?

 

And may I say that it's a bit rich being told that I haven't got a clue by a man (?) who clearly has no idea as to the meaning of Eire.

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2013 at 20:19 ----------

 

My grandfather was born in Ireland when it was all part of the U.K. Although Catholic he grew up in a predominantly Protestant area of the north and then moved to Belfast.

 

It wasnt quite like Missisippi back then. Everyone looked the same, spoke the same but you were categorized by your religion. A Scots or English name defined you as Protestant while a real Irish name like Ryan or O'connor immediately identified you as a Catholic or as the Orangemen so qaintly referred to as a "Taig"

 

My grandfather worked as a pipe fitter on the Titanic while she was being constructed at Harland and Wolf's shipyard in Belfast. The way of hiring help was that those who were identified as Protestant were hired first and if there were still any openings after that then they were open to Catholics.

 

N.I was a province with a society of first and second class citizens and neighborhoods segregated by religion. A kind of an all white Mississippi.

 

This was only a continuation of the earlier "pale" system where enclaves of so called Anglo-Irish lived in their own communities around Dublin and away from the so called "ignorant" Irish Catholic peasantry

 

The IRA came into being because like every other radical/ revolutionary movement societal conditions and colonial oppression created it.

 

N.I became part of the UK but it was a time bomb waiting to go off sooner or later. It should have been under the direct administration of London from the start instead of being governed by a bunch of local narrow minded religious bigots. History might have been a bit different

 

That just about sums it up accurately & you are correct about the direct rule from London.

I have no sympathy for the British Government in this situation. They knew what the Unionist/ Orange people were like, bigots to a man.

Despite which they chose to leave them to it. What happened was inevitable & the fact that a civil rights movement was necessary in a part of the UK was a total disgrace.

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2013 at 20:23 ----------

 

I'm almost certain that mjw47 was pointing out rightly that for the most part it isn't a religious conflict, its a cultural conflict.

 

That is precisely what I was attempting to do, culture & control. I appear to have confused someone. Must try to keep it simple.

[LeMaquis]

Calm down you foolish person I repeat for the hard of understanding. The argument between Nationalists & Unionists is about ownership of the six counties.

It is about whether the capital is London or Dublin. It is about whether the system of Government is a Monarchy or a Republic. It is about whether the country is United or continues to be divided.

 

All of the above are more important than religion, do you understand that?

 

The fact that one side happens to be Catholic & the other Protestant doesn't help matters but the main points of contention are as above.

 

Religion is used as an easy identifier,because Catholics tend to be Nationalist & Protestants tend to be Unionist. It does not mean however that Catholics are ALWAYS Nationalist nor does it mean ALL Protestants are Unionist.

 

Do you understand that?

 

And may I say that it's a bit rich being told that I haven't got a clue by a man (?) who clearly has no idea as to the meaning of Eire.

 

Eire is the Irish Republic. What do you think it means?

 

You are arguing that religion is incidental to the politics of Northern Ireland. I am arguing that religion is central to the politics of Northern Ireland. If you want evidence then look no further than the religion of the vast majority of voters of Sinn Fein and SDLP on the one hand, and the religion of the vast majority of voters of DUP, OUP, UUP on the other. The fact that it isn't 100% black and white on both sides is irrelevant.

[SevenRivers]

What about many other scandals and terrible injustices such as the forced migration of masses of children being shipped off to Australia from Children's Homes, and the terrible way unmarried mothers were treated in mother and baby homes in the UK up until the 60s/70s?

Then there's the appalling history of the workhouses etc ? All that is fairly recent history. Did all that only happen in Ireland?

 

My point being, that focusing on the social injustices of the past, are never going to be of any use in solving those divisions in Northern Ireland.

 

I completely agree, but imo the Ireland of today is a less liberal place than the UK, I don't think the youth of NI will want to be part of it.

 

I posted links earlier to a couple of polls. If the Republic was such a fantastic place, their cultural superiority would draw people to want to be part of them, but it isn't.

[LeMaquis]

That is precisely what I was attempting to do, culture & control. I appear to have confused someone. Must try to keep it simple.

 

If you are lining yourself up alongside angos then you should note that he is arguing that the conflict in Ireland is cultural (whatever that means) and not religious only so that he can exonerate Christianity of its violent side in order to emphasise that it is Islam that is the main religion of violence.

[LeMaquis]

I completely agree, but imo the Ireland of today is a less liberal place than the UK, I don't think the youth of NI will want to be part of it.

 

You're ignoring the fact that the youth of Ireland on both sides of the border have a centuries old tradition of emigrating to foreign countries for reasons not based on political culture but on economics. And the youth of Northern Ireland on both sides are not necessarily the most liberal people anyway being as they are carrying on the illiberal religious traditions of their ancestors.

[GLASGOWOODS]

Correct Mel, I hadn't picked up on this news (been busy watching basketball). The situation in NI is still ridiculous. My wife point blank refuses when I suggest we should go on holiday there, when will they learn that they are hurting themselves only by being pig-headed over this ancient argument.

 

I've lived in both north and south. Lovely people and a beautiful country.

 

Get your lass over there.You could even take a photo of her outside the most bombed hotel in Europe.(possibly the world)

[LeMaquis]

:hihi:

You really have got it bad, seek help man before you give yourself an heart attack.

 

The only time I would seek help would be if I ever found myself on the same side as a paedophile-apologist like yourself.

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2013 at 20:47 ----------

 

Lovely people and a beautiful country.

 

....the most bombed hotel in Europe.(possibly the world)

 

There's loveliness and beauty.

[mjw47]

Eire is the Irish Republic. What do you think it means?

 

You are arguing that religion is incidental to the politics of Northern Ireland. I am arguing that religion is central to the politics of Northern Ireland. If you want evidence then look no further than the religion of the vast majority of voters of Sinn Fein and SDLP on the one hand, and the religion of the vast majority of voters of DUP, OUP, UUP on the other. The fact that it isn't 100% black and white on both sides is irrelevant.

 

You really do not know what the hell you are talking about do you? Ever heard the one about 'When you find yourself in a hole stop digging'?

 

Eire does not mean the Irish Republic, it means Ireland. Just that & nothing more. And Ireland means the entire island, all 32 counties of it.

 

Did I not say that Catholics tend to be Nationalist? Did I not also say that Protestants tend to be Unionist?

Would that explain the voting patterns?

 

My point is, & you seem unable to grasp it, is that religion ,whilst being a factor, is not the MAIN factor.

 

To look upon the conflict as being a religious quarrel primarily is to totally misconstrue the situation.

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2013 at 21:07 ----------

 

You're ignoring the fact that the youth of Ireland on both sides of the border have a centuries old tradition of emigrating to foreign countries for reasons not based on political culture but on economics. And the youth of Northern Ireland on both sides are not necessarily the most liberal people anyway being as they are carrying on the illiberal religious traditions of their ancestors.

 

The centuries old tradition came about mainly because of the actions of those who were governing them at the time.

 

May I ask you a relevant question? What exactly is your actual experience of Ireland?

 

The thing is your comments are unbelievably outdated. Did you obtain them from The Quite Man film with John Wayne & Maureen O' Hara?

[LeMaquis]

You really do not know what the hell you are talking about do you? Ever heard the one about 'When you find yourself in a hole stop digging'?

 

Eire does not mean the Irish Republic, it means Ireland. Just that & nothing more. And Ireland means the entire island, all 32 counties of it.

 

Did I not say that Catholics tend to be Nationalist? Did I not also say that Protestants tend to be Unionist?

Would that explain the voting patterns?

 

My point is, & you seem unable to grasp it, is that religion ,whilst being a factor, is not the MAIN factor.

 

To look upon the conflict as being a religious quarrel primarily is to totally misconstrue the situation.

 

Eire is also the name of the Irish state according to the Irish constitution. I use it to distinguish between the 26 county state and the 6 county province.

 

Religion is the main factor in Northern Irish politics. The vast majority of people vote according to their religion. They don't even have abortion. The state is an orange state and was set up as an orange state in order to ensure that Protestantism tied it to the UK, something it still does.

 

If you can provide evidence to your claim that religion is not the main issue in Northern Irish politics then do and I'll gladly shoot it down.

[Boothybabe]

if you was sat in that resteraunt, or walking past that alley as it went off, it would be exactly the same, you wouldnt know the outcome, youd be terrified for your life

 

The bomb was so crap it actually cleaned the windows, I reckon it was just a pressure cooker someone left on.