mjw47 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Sierra. Ali wasn't at all curious as to where his ancestors came from. Not only did he know his great grandfather was Irish, he knew he came from Ennis in Clare & told Ulick O' Connor, an Irish writer who interviewed him back in the 60s all about it. He was also interviewed at Shannon airport during a stop over years later & brought it up again. Shannon airport is in County Clare. He claimed that his gift at 'poetry' came from his Irish blood, no one liked to contradict him! As for visiting 'down low' (curious expression) he was officially invited by the Mayor of Ennis to receive the freedom of Ennis, the first man to do so since the town was granted a charter 800 years ago. You say he only put up with Angelo Dundee out of self interest. Dundee died on 1st of February 2012 at the age of 90. Three weeks before his death he attended Ali's 70th birthday. Why would Ali bother to invite a man who was of no further use to him ,& who he had been only tolerating for 40 odd years? Just as importantly, why would Angelo Dundee at 90 years of age bother to attend the birthday of a man he must have known hated ALL whites? You are allowing your dislike of Ali to cloud your judgement. Muhammad Ali was not, & is not a racist. ---------- Post added 09-01-2014 at 21:24 ---------- Ali could have retired undefeated when he beat Leon Spinks after losing to him earlier but instead he tried to make a come back after retiring, got thrashed by Larry Holmes and then later loses to Trevor Berbick if I remember correctly. He could have kept the glory instead of making a fool of himself unless his come back attempt was because he was short of money since he'd given it all away to his Black Muslim buddies. Not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to making decisions and managing his hard earned fortune Come on Harleyman! How many sportsman have done exactly the same? They find it almost impossible to give up the game. Only when they lose badly or consistently will they eventually except it's over. Ali was by no means the first to do that & he definitely wasn't the last. Heard of Ricky Hatton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Sierra. Ali wasn't at all curious as to where his ancestors came from. Not only did he know his great grandfather was Irish, he knew he came from Ennis in Clare & told Ulick O' Connor, an Irish writer who interviewed him back in the 60s all about it. He was also interviewed at Shannon airport during a stop over years later & brought it up again. Shannon airport is in County Clare. He claimed that his gift at 'poetry' came from his Irish blood, no one liked to contradict him! As for visiting 'down low' (curious expression) he was officially invited by the Mayor of Ennis to receive the freedom of Ennis, the first man to do so since the town was granted a charter 800 years ago. You say he only put up with Angelo Dundee out of self interest. Dundee died on 1st of February 2012 at the age of 90. Three weeks before his death he attended Ali's 70th birthday. Why would Ali bother to invite a man who was of no further use to him ,& who he had been only tolerating for 40 odd years? Just as importantly, why would Angelo Dundee at 90 years of age bother to attend the birthday of a man he must have known hated ALL whites? You are allowing your dislike of Ali to cloud your judgement. Muhammad Ali was not, & is not a racist. mjw47, You're looking at things as black and white, and relations between the races are rarely black and white. I think their relationship started out as mostly self interest on both their parts. i.e. this guy can help me get places, i.e. this is the fighter who will put me on the map as a great trainer. If he rises to the top, so do I. No doubt, genuine affection grew between Muhammed Ali and Angelo Dundee. I'm sure he was more than a trainer, he was a mentor and a reliable older person with common sense, connections and knowledge of the boxing world who could help Ali rise to the top, instead of being chewed up and spit out. I'm not a huge sports or boxing fan, but my mother's late brother was. He had all sorts of theories and opinions as to why one fighter might "make it" and another would be forgotten. I don't know what the deal was with the Mayor of Ennis, but I'm sure he knew exactly how to appeal to Ali's vanity. After all, he wasn't well and he might very well have said no. Celebrities receive all kinds of requests for personal appearances and favors. The expression "on the down low" originally had a sexual meaning, but it's morphed into meaning to do something quietly, to keep it secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 He wasn't so popular in the US then. I can understand the sensitivity on the Vietnam issue, but I feel he is being misjudged on the racist matter. His popularity increased here in the UK after being seen on TV doing chat show interviews. That was probably because under that surface of arrogance, people saw a much more pleasant side to his character. You don't have to put someone on a pedestal and ignore every fault to like someone, and I have heard nothing about him that has changed my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Come on Harleyman! How many sportsman have done exactly the same? They find it almost impossible to give up the game. Only when they lose badly or consistently will they eventually except it's over. Ali was by no means the first to do that & he definitely wasn't the last. Heard of Ricky Hatton? For every Ricky Hatton, there's a George Foreman. Hulk Hogan tells a funny story about the popular George Foreman grill. He and George Foreman had the same manager. The manager had two business propositions, one an indoor grill and the other a small portable blender. He called each of them at home, George Foreman was home, answered the phone and picked the grill. Hulk Hogan was out, missed the phone call and got stuck with the blender. The blender flopped, the grill was a huge success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pessimistic1 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 What a load of drivel; I mean really, really cringingly poor. ---------- Post added 09-01-2014 at 20:34 ---------- Really credible theory. Not. Witless argument, frequently adopted by racists. Yeah, and I'm the Duke of Norfolk and Nick Griffin is the saviour of humanity. I'm quite flattered. You are a funny guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Sierra, As we're telling story's I have a good one about Ali. I mentioned Ulick O'Connor in my last post. His interview with Ali took place aboard an airplane on one of Ali's return trips to the States following one of his successful fights abroad. During the flight two young Jewish boys wearing skull caps approached Ali and asked very shyly if they could record him on their cine recorder. Ali said yes and as they started to record he jumped out of his seat and started to 'trash talk' them. He came up with a rhyme off the top of his head about what he was going to do to them in the ring. O' Connor was horrified as Ali at 6' 3'' was towering over these young boys with a fierce expression on his face and throwing shadow punches in the air over their heads. He thought the boys would be terrified, then he looked at them and realised they were laughing all over their faces and loving it. That was Ali, a serious hater of all mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 What never occured to Ali was that his father's generation of black soldiers served in a segregated army yet went overseas to fight the Nazis and the Japs. Had Hitler or the Japanese won Ali would have had a very different existence if indeed an existence at all ---------- Post added 10-01-2014 at 00:02 ---------- Sierra, As we're telling story's I have a good one about Ali. I mentioned Ulick O'Connor in my last post. His interview with Ali took place aboard an airplane on one of Ali's return trips to the States following one of his successful fights abroad. During the flight two young Jewish boys wearing skull caps approached Ali and asked very shyly if they could record him on their cine recorder. Ali said yes and as they started to record he jumped out of his seat and started to 'trash talk' them. He came up with a rhyme off the top of his head about what he was going to do to them in the ring. O' Connor was horrified as Ali at 6' 3'' was towering over these young boys with a fierce expression on his face and throwing shadow punches in the air over their heads. He thought the boys would be terrified, then he looked at them and realised they were laughing all over their faces and loving it. That was Ali, a serious hater of all mankind. Today he would have had the police waiting to take him off the plane when it landed but I guess in first class the alcohol is free and plentiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buck Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 He was arguably the greatest boxer who ever lived, & a man who influenced the society in which he found himself by showing by his character that people of African descent are equal to anyone. If your problem with him is his refusal to fight in Vietnam then I have to say that I wouldn't fight for a country which had laws in place which defined me as inferior to other citizens either. Whilst he may be a sick man now he will always count, & will be remembered long after all of us are forgotten. I would give that honor to the great Joe Louis, a quiet gentle giant of a man, who not only beat every heavyweight he fought, but served his country with courage during WW2. We need to pick our heroes carefully. I admire George Foreman too, that grill of his works wonders. ---------- Post added 09-01-2014 at 23:57 ---------- Well you see Harleyman we all react in different ways to things that happen to us in our lives don't we? And who are you or I to say how another man should behave in circumstances that happened to him & only to him? Like you I am half Irish & have also been referred to as an 'effin Paddy' on occasion, despite the fact I'm half English. Question is, what was your reaction? Mine depended entirely upon the way the comment was delivered, said with a smile & meant as 'banter' I would just say something appropriate back. Said aggressively, I hit em. Funnily enough, I have also lived in Ireland & attended two schools there, & on no occasion did anyone insult my English bloodline. One of the reasons why I like the Paddy's so much. However, to try & compare a very occasional comment from some idiot, with the attitude that African Americans had to put up with their entire lives is ridiculous. The colour of their skin marked them out everywhere they went throughout their lives. They knew that whatever the law had been altered to say, a huge number of whites still regarded them as inferior & looked down on them. It is not for you or I to judge Ali he was entitled to his emotions & despite comments which he made in justifiable anger I do not believe he was a racist. I'm not sure of much of my ancestry. My grandfather on my father's side came from Devon, though my father was the youngest of ten children, and my grandfather dead long before I came along. After my wife died, I met and married Pauline O' Halloran from Six Mile Bridge in County Clare. I have been adopted by her massive Irish and Irish American family as one of them for 32 years, went over every year that some of them didn't come here, until a couple of years ago when my health stopped me going. I have taught their kids to swim, skate, and ride bikes, how to know what an offside is. they are now teaching their kids just the way I taught them. America is no more racist than the North of England was before I left. Very little of the old South is what it was, and matters little anyway. My oldest grandson is happily married to his African American wife. Two of our cousins have married Jewish girls, and one even married an Italian!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I would give that honor to the great Joe Louis, a quiet gentle giant of a man, who not only beat every heavyweight he fought, but served his country with courage during WW2. We need to pick our heroes carefully. I admire George Foreman too, that grill of his works wonders. ---------- Post added 09-01-2014 at 23:57 ---------- I'm not sure of much of my ancestry. My grandfather on my father's side came from Devon, though my father was the youngest of ten children, and my grandfather dead long before I came along. After my wife died, I met and married Pauline O' Halloran from Six Mile Bridge in County Clare. I have been adopted by her massive Irish and Irish American family as one of them for 32 years, went over every year that some of them didn't come here, until a couple of years ago when my health stopped me going. I have taught their kids to swim, skate, and ride bikes, how to know what an offside is. they are now teaching their kids just the way I taught them. America is no more racist than the North of England was before I left. Very little of the old South is what it was, and matters little anyway. My oldest grandson is happily married to his African American wife. Two of our cousins have married Jewish girls, and one even married an Italian!! Good point Buck just as Jackie Robinson of baseball fame also served his country, broke the colour barrier in that game and became respected and admired not only by baseball fans everywhere but by the public in general. Ali on the other hand could have served his people well by following the likes of Louis, Robinson ans Martin Luther King but instead squandered his widespread popularity by foolishly labeling his country racist because a few ignoramuses used the N word against him. I keep coming back to the same conclusion about this man in that he wasnt very bright and his mouth often worked faster than his brain did ---------- Post added 10-01-2014 at 06:24 ---------- That's what I'm saying.. Ali should be treated the same as white racists. ---------- Post added 09-01-2014 at 18:37 ---------- Mmmmm aren't the Irish decedents of Kelts from Germany. You're German It always seemed strange that Germany and England ended up fighting each other in two world wars. Traditionally they were allies before that and racially close cousins. France was always the common enemy and it was with Prussian help that Wellington vanquished Napoleon at Waterloo. I suppose necessity made us allies with the barbarian Russians in order to destroy Hitler but all the same it was a tragedy that the land of Goethe, Schiller and Beethoven had to be almost destroyed in the process. My uncle was in the British occupation army at the close of the war. He said the Russians were a bunch of ignorant swine some who had never even seen a flush toilet before and it was pitiful to see refugee women of all ages from 12 to 80 who had been raped by Russian soldiers before managing to escape to the British occcupation zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol_bishop25 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Guys, watch this movie - The Butler with Forest Whitaker when you have time. It can give you an idea of the situation in these troubled years. PS: Can't post the link, because of post count requirements ;/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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