mjw47 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Harleyman. So civil rights had been passed & Jim Crow was on it's way out. Well yes that made everything OK then, didn't it? And all those nice Southern Gentlemen agreed with such alacrity, charm & grace to accept their fellow Americans of different skin colour as their equals. Why, they hardly made a fuss at all. Ali & his fellow African Americans should have been overjoyed to risk their lives for such a magnanimous group of folks. As Ali said at the time ' No Vietcong ever called me n****r.' Had he have accepted the draft he would have basically been saying ' this is a great country, all is forgiven.' All was not forgiven, why should it have been? He was born there & he & his people were treat as less than human for years. Dodging the draft because you were afraid was one thing, dodging it for a principle took courage. It's not as if they'd have let him near the front line if he had joined, he'd have been a poster boy for recruitment. It caused him more personal problems not going than if he'd just gone along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Harleyman. So civil rights had been passed & Jim Crow was on it's way out. Well yes that made everything OK then, didn't it? And all those nice Southern Gentlemen agreed with such alacrity, charm & grace to accept their fellow Americans of different skin colour as their equals. Why, they hardly made a fuss at all. Ali & his fellow African Americans should have been overjoyed to risk their lives for such a magnanimous group of folks. As Ali said at the time ' No Vietcong ever called me n****r.' Had he have accepted the draft he would have basically been saying ' this is a great country, all is forgiven.' All was not forgiven, why should it have been? He was born there & he & his people were treat as less than human for years. Dodging the draft because you were afraid was one thing, dodging it for a principle took courage. It's not as if they'd have let him near the front line if he had joined, he'd have been a poster boy for recruitment. It caused him more personal problems not going than if he'd just gone along with it. So you reduce everything to a common denominator. Southern rednecks were the "Country " were they? There's the flaw in your logic just as you erroneously stated earlier that there were laws in the country defining Ali as being less equal than other citizens (or words similar to that) As you know I was born of an Irish mother. Did I refuse to be called up for national service in 1960 beacuse her people had been treated as less than human by the English for centuries? On one or two occasions I was called a "mick" "bog man" "paddy bestard" by your home grown equivalent of the southern rednecks who didnt know that I was also half English and English born. That didnt turn me into a loud mouthed extremist who joined some UK nut group equal to the Black Panthers or the Muslim Brotherhood with an agenda to spread mayhem and disorder. If you want to talk about African-Americans who achieved far, far more than a loudmouth like Ali look no further than Martin Luther King Junior or Colin Powell. son of Jamaican immigrants who grew from humble beginnings to become one of the country's highest ranking military officers to name but two. Jessie Owens didnt turn his back on his country during the 1936 Olympics in Germany. Owens was born in an America far more segergated overall than the America Ali was born into. He represented his country and proved to the world that a black man was in every way equal to any of Hitler's so called Aryan supermen. And need I even mention Joe Louis who proved the same? These people earned respect from everyone and were an inspiration to their race. Unfortunalely MLK was killed by one of the southern nut jobs but that individual did not represent any American except a few sickos who didnt even fit into their own societies There were several African -American officers in my Marine Company incidentally as well as senior NCOs and they were anything but less than "equal citizens" Ali may have been the greatest boxer of his time but he wasnt that smart otherwise, having given away his fortune to the extremist group he got mixed up in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well you see Harleyman we all react in different ways to things that happen to us in our lives don't we? And who are you or I to say how another man should behave in circumstances that happened to him & only to him? Like you I am half Irish & have also been referred to as an 'effin Paddy' on occasion, despite the fact I'm half English. Question is, what was your reaction? Mine depended entirely upon the way the comment was delivered, said with a smile & meant as 'banter' I would just say something appropriate back. Said aggressively, I hit em. Funnily enough, I have also lived in Ireland & attended two schools there, & on no occasion did anyone insult my English bloodline. One of the reasons why I like the Paddy's so much. However, to try & compare a very occasional comment from some idiot, with the attitude that African Americans had to put up with their entire lives is ridiculous. The colour of their skin marked them out everywhere they went throughout their lives. They knew that whatever the law had been altered to say, a huge number of whites still regarded them as inferior & looked down on them. It is not for you or I to judge Ali he was entitled to his emotions & despite comments which he made in justifiable anger I do not believe he was a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well you see Harleyman we all react in different ways to things that happen to us in our lives don't we? And who are you or I to say how another man should behave in circumstances that happened to him & only to him? Like you I am half Irish & have also been referred to as an 'effin Paddy' on occasion, despite the fact I'm half English. Question is, what was your reaction? Mine depended entirely upon the way the comment was delivered, said with a smile & meant as 'banter' I would just say something appropriate back. Said aggressively, I hit em. Funnily enough, I have also lived in Ireland & attended two schools there, & on no occasion did anyone insult my English bloodline. One of the reasons why I like the Paddy's so much. However, to try & compare a very occasional comment from some idiot, with the attitude that African Americans had to put up with their entire lives is ridiculous. The colour of their skin marked them out everywhere they went throughout their lives. They knew that whatever the law had been altered to say, a huge number of whites still regarded them as inferior & looked down on them. It is not for you or I to judge Ali he was entitled to his emotions & despite comments which he made in justifiable anger I do not believe he was a racist. He was entitled to his opinions because like all Americans he was protected under the First Amendment. However his problem was that he saw America as a "redneck country" reduced it to a common denominator of a racist and intolerant society which of course he should have known better than to say that having been born here. "Looking down" on others is a less worthy human trait. It's done everywhere, not only here and we've all been guilty of it some time or other. In the case of the poor southern redneck back then there was probably some comfort in his befogged mind that although he was at the bottom of the heap there was in his way of thinking a group of people who were even below him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 He was entitled to his opinions because like all Americans he was protected under the First Amendment. However his problem was that he saw America as a "redneck country" reduced it to a common denominator of a racist and intolerant society which of course he should have known better than to say that having been born here. "Looking down" on others is a less worthy human trait. It's done everywhere, not only here and we've all been guilty of it some time or other. In the case of the poor southern redneck back then there was probably some comfort in his befogged mind that although he was at the bottom of the heap there was in his way of thinking a group of people who were even below him It may be done everywhere Harleyman, & it is, but it doesn't make it right does it? His experience gave him the feeling that he & his fellow African Americans were treat unfairly in a land that proclaimed itself to be 'The land of the free and the home of the brave.' The 'American Dream' didn't apply to his people. That must have been very hard to take. Being born into a country that didn't accept you as a full & equal member, whilst portraying itself to the rest of the world as the 'Land of Opportunity' & the greatest Democracy on the planet. To be honest I can fully appreciate the anger of Ali & his fellow African Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 It may be done everywhere Harleyman, & it is, but it doesn't make it right does it? His experience gave him the feeling that he & his fellow African Americans were treat unfairly in a land that proclaimed itself to be 'The land of the free and the home of the brave.' The 'American Dream' didn't apply to his people. That must have been very hard to take. Being born into a country that didn't accept you as a full & equal member, whilst portraying itself to the rest of the world as the 'Land of Opportunity' & the greatest Democracy on the planet. To be honest I can fully appreciate the anger of Ali & his fellow African Americans. You must remember that around 250,000 soldiers from the northern states died to bring freedom to the black people. It was also to preserve the union but Lincoln finally got his act of emancipation through Congress in 1865. There was therefore some conscience in existence. A black southerner who moved north found it in many ways a much different and more welcoming world that he or she had left behind When the civil war was over and immigrants from Europe began to arrive in large numbers there was also discrimination against them. The Anglo, Dutch, German, Scots and Scots-Irish hierarchy who up until then made up the majority of the white population didnt exactly make the Italians, Jews, Chinese and Catholic Irish welcome and they suffered segregation and lack of equality just as the black people did. They formed groups and associations which existed to help them move ahead and did not rely on big daddy in Washington to help them along. The average American soldier who fought in WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam had some ancestors in the family line who must have experienced some form of discrimination at some period in the family history The Japanes-Americans suffered the worst in modern times when after Pearl Harbor they were interned in camps all over the south-west yet many young Japanese-Americans signed up to serve in a segregated infantry unit, the 222nd regimental combat team and by the war's end that unit had won more citations and medals than any other infantry division What I'm trying to say is that discrimination wasn't all about black people. It was a hard slog for many who did not fit into the "socially acceptable pattern" but they persevered, gained respect, worked hard and made sure their kids got a good education. Pioneers like Martin Luther King led the way for the black people. Cesar Chavez did the same for the Mexican-American people. People like Malcolm X did nothing to help their cause whatsoever and just made it harder for King and his fellow civil rights activists to accomplish their dreams of equality but like I said Muhammad Ali, ace boxing champ wasnt very smart when it came to helping his people and while I can respect his boxing prowess I cannot do the same for him otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pessimistic1 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 You must remember that around 250,000 soldiers from the northern states died to bring freedom to the black people. It was also to preserve the union but Lincoln finally got his act of emancipation through Congress in 1865. There was therefore some conscience in existence. A black southerner who moved north found it in many ways a much different and more welcoming world that he or she had left behind When the civil war was over and immigrants from Europe began to arrive in large numbers there was also discrimination against them. The Anglo, Dutch, German, Scots and Scots-Irish hierarchy who up until then made up the majority of the white population didnt exactly make the Italians, Jews, Chinese and Catholic Irish welcome and they suffered segregation and lack of equality just as the black people did. They formed groups and associations which existed to help them move ahead and did not rely on big daddy in Washington to help them along. The average American soldier who fought in WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam had some ancestors in the family line who must have experienced some form of discrimination at some period in the family history The Japanes-Americans suffered the worst in modern times when after Pearl Harbor they were interned in camps all over the south-west yet many young Japanese-Americans signed up to serve in a segregated infantry unit, the 222nd regimental combat team and by the war's end that unit had won more citations and medals than any other infantry division What I'm trying to say is that discrimination wasn't all about black people. It was a hard slog for many who did not fit into the "socially acceptable pattern" but they persevered, gained respect, worked hard and made sure their kids got a good education. Pioneers like Martin Luther King led the way for the black people. Cesar Chavez did the same for the Mexican-American people. People like Malcolm X did nothing to help their cause whatsoever and just made it harder for King and his fellow civil rights activists to accomplish their dreams of equality but like I said Muhammad Ali, ace boxing champ wasnt very smart when it came to helping his people and while I can respect his boxing prowess I cannot do the same for him otherwise Excellent post Harley... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Bourne Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Yeh lets string up Mohamed Ali for something he said in the 60's ! I'm up for it, someone grab his arms and legs and I'll open the boot Yeah, that'll teach him to stare at our white women! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertramp Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 You must remember that around 250,000 soldiers from the northern states died to bring freedom to the black people. It was also to preserve the union but Lincoln finally got his act of emancipation through Congress in 1865. There was therefore some conscience in existence. A black southerner who moved north found it in many ways a much different and more welcoming world that he or she had left behind When the civil war was over and immigrants from Europe began to arrive in large numbers there was also discrimination against them. The Anglo, Dutch, German, Scots and Scots-Irish hierarchy who up until then made up the majority of the white population didnt exactly make the Italians, Jews, Chinese and Catholic Irish welcome and they suffered segregation and lack of equality just as the black people did. They formed groups and associations which existed to help them move ahead and did not rely on big daddy in Washington to help them along. The average American soldier who fought in WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam had some ancestors in the family line who must have experienced some form of discrimination at some period in the family history The Japanes-Americans suffered the worst in modern times when after Pearl Harbor they were interned in camps all over the south-west yet many young Japanese-Americans signed up to serve in a segregated infantry unit, the 222nd regimental combat team and by the war's end that unit had won more citations and medals than any other infantry division What I'm trying to say is that discrimination wasn't all about black people. It was a hard slog for many who did not fit into the "socially acceptable pattern" but they persevered, gained respect, worked hard and made sure their kids got a good education. Pioneers like Martin Luther King led the way for the black people. Cesar Chavez did the same for the Mexican-American people. People like Malcolm X did nothing to help their cause whatsoever and just made it harder for King and his fellow civil rights activists to accomplish their dreams of equality but like I said Muhammad Ali, ace boxing champ wasnt very smart when it came to helping his people and while I can respect his boxing prowess I cannot do the same for him otherwise So after 1865 black people were allowed to go to school with white people and sit on the bus whilst white people stand? I didn't know that. The difference is the country and it's policies were racist rather than individuals that's why people do not have a problem with Ali venting his anger by dodging draft in a pointless war. I love how people compare apples and bicycles on forums and therefore think their argument has merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pessimistic1 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Excellent post Harley... So after 1865 black people were allowed to go to school with white people and sit on the bus whilst white people stand? I didn't know that. The difference is the country and it's policies were racist rather than individuals that's why people do not have a problem with Ali venting his anger by dodging draft in a pointless war. I love how people compare apples and bicycles on forums and therefore think their argument has merit. Bit feeble really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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