At last - today i joined ukip.

[LeMaquis]

Indeed. The Irish would have been made to vote over and over until they did accept it. The French public, which rejected it in a referendum, were not given the chance to vote again, Sarkozy did not trust them to return the desired outcome, so he denied them the right to vote again and ratified it through Parliament.

 

Referenda are nothing new, and don't undermine democracy, they enhance it, we should have more.

 

Your previous post said At least 3 countries rejected the European Constitution. It said nothing about subsequent referenda endorsing the Treaty. Did you leave that bit out because it would have undermined your argument that the EU does not take public opinion into account? Sarkozy was right-wing by the way. You know. A bit like you. And a bit like Thatcher who signed us up to the Single European Act and all that freedom of movement for citizens.

 

Referenda are indeed nothing new. I remember one in 1975, something else you didn't dare mention.

[Jmack]

Your previous post said At least 3 countries rejected the European Constitution. It said nothing about subsequent referenda endorsing the Treaty. Did you leave that bit out because it would have undermined your argument that the EU does not take public opinion into account? Sarkozy was right-wing by the way. You know. A bit like you. And a bit like Thatcher who signed us up to the Single European Act and all that freedom of movement for citizens.

 

Referenda are indeed nothing new. I remember one in 1975, something else you didn't dare mention.

 

You touched on a good point at the end. These guys don't want a referendum, they want to leave and see a referendum as their best shot at achieving it. If we had a referendum tomorrow and they lost it all they'd do is keep quiet for a couple of years then come back out the woodwork again.

 

Eurosceptics really are the creationists of politics, despite all the evidence proving them wrong they still scream and shout and do their level best to try and influence things. When really all they need to do is open their eyes and look at the modern world.

[Qualtrough]

Well you've changed your point. You said that if a party was in the wilderness for 100 years you'd disband it. Now after i pointed out the Lib Dems are only 25 years old you've reduced that to 30 years. I think your own misinformation is becoming very clear.

 

It was rebadged after merging with the SDP. Big deal. I also said that 23% was still a joke since the rebadging.

[Jmack]

It was rebadged after merging with the SDP. Big deal. I also said that 23% was still a joke since the rebadging.

 

You need to deal with facts not your own opinion. The Lib Dems were formed in 1988. In the 2010 election they polled 23% of the vote and won 57 seats. Are there any other party's that were formed 25 years ago and achieved this?

 

Well let's comapare them to UKIP, they were formed in 1993 so are 5 years the junior of the Lib Dems. For this reason we can cut them some slack. In the 2010 election they won 0 seats (that's 57 less than the Lib Dems) and polled 3.1% of the vote (that's 19.9% of the vote less than the Lib Dems) so taking into account the fact that UKIP are younger the Lib Dems we can still say they are a lot more successful than UKIP.

[SevenRivers]

Your previous post said At least 3 countries rejected the European Constitution. It said nothing about subsequent referenda endorsing the Treaty. Did you leave that bit out because it would have undermined your argument that the EU does not take public opinion into account? Sarkozy was right-wing by the way. You know. A bit like you. And a bit like Thatcher who signed us up to the Single European Act and all that freedom of movement for citizens.

 

Referenda are indeed nothing new. I remember one in 1975, something else you didn't dare mention.

 

Correct 3 countries rejected it in referenda. France and the Netherlands rejected the EU constitution in referenda. The EU then waited for a little while, long enough for people to forget about it, then silently went about implementing it with the Lisbon Treaty, same as the constitution in all but name. Crucially, France and Netherlands public were denied a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish got a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, which they rejected. They then had to vote again, because a no vote was not acceptable. By the time of the second vote, the Irish economy had collapsed and they were indebted to the ECB for bailing them out, so inevitably the vote was bought with Euros.

 

I don't know why you are obsessed with everything having to be defined in terms of left/right. Plenty on the left want out of the EU too.

 

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 21:39 ----------

 

You touched on a good point at the end. These guys don't want a referendum, they want to leave and see a referendum as their best shot at achieving it. If we had a referendum tomorrow and they lost it all they'd do is keep quiet for a couple of years then come back out the woodwork again.

 

Eurosceptics really are the creationists of politics, despite all the evidence proving them wrong they still scream and shout and do their level best to try and influence things. When really all they need to do is open their eyes and look at the modern world.

 

Where as you and your ilk see our future as ever more closer integration with the EU, and you dare not want to give the public a vote on the matter because you know you're a minority, and the majority would reject it, given the chance.

[skinz]

Decided to make it my new year's resolution to build a better future for everyone not just myself and my family.

 

Positive thoughts please.

Discuss!

 

 

I can't think of any positive ukip thoughts. Admitting to joining is like a 45yr old admitting to living with his mum.

[southcoast]

So do you see Europe as being our enemy? You do know that the war is over.

 

Of course the war is over,after all Berlin now rules the roost so no need to take up arms again.

[Qualtrough]

You need to deal with facts not your own opinion. The Lib Dems were formed in 1988. In the 2010 election they polled 23% of the vote and won 57 seats. Are there any other party's that were formed 25 years ago and achieved this?

 

Well let's comapare them to UKIP, they were formed in 1993 so are 5 years the junior of the Lib Dems. For this reason we can cut them some slack. In the 2010 election they won 0 seats (that's 57 less than the Lib Dems) and polled 3.1% of the vote (that's 19.9% of the vote less than the Lib Dems) so taking into account the fact that UKIP are younger the Lib Dems we can still say they are a lot more successful than UKIP.

 

Fair enough. I'm a Labourite on the whole. I also understand Clegg has done the best he can with what he has, you won't find me slagging him off over tuition fees.

[Jmack]

Fair enough. I'm a Labourite on the whole. I also understand Clegg has done the best he can with what he has, you won't find me slagging him off over tuition fees.

 

Trust me, i'm not proud of all he's done. I feel very queasy about the Bedroom tax. But we need to understand that the Lib Dems are quite a small bit of the coalition so we have to compromise.

 

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 22:32 ----------

 

Correct 3 countries rejected it in referenda. France and the Netherlands rejected the EU constitution in referenda. The EU then waited for a little while, long enough for people to forget about it, then silently went about implementing it with the Lisbon Treaty, same as the constitution in all but name. Crucially, France and Netherlands public were denied a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish got a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, which they rejected. They then had to vote again, because a no vote was not acceptable. By the time of the second vote, the Irish economy had collapsed and they were indebted to the ECB for bailing them out, so inevitably the vote was bought with Euros.

 

I don't know why you are obsessed with everything having to be defined in terms of left/right. Plenty on the left want out of the EU too.

 

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 21:39 ----------

 

 

Where as you and your ilk see our future as ever more closer integration with the EU, and you dare not want to give the public a vote on the matter because you know you're a minority, and the majority would reject it, given the chance.

 

You sure, http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/12/european-union-referendum-poll_n_4259327.html

[LeMaquis]

I don't know why you are obsessed with everything having to be defined in terms of left/right.

 

The main opposition to EU membership is on the right (Tory Europhobes, UKIP and what's left of the BNP, NF, EDP, etc). On the left there may some old-fashioned Labour lefties, Respect and the small groups of Trots and anarchists.

 

The EU is largely a right of centre capitalist organisation. Those on the right who oppose it do so from a nationalist point of view (protect our borders, kick out the immigrants, etc).

 

I notice though that as part of his job Nigel Farage employs a German. Maybe his reason for ignoring his usual jobs-for-the-Brits line is that the German in question is his wife.