Manlinose Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 i'm a working class person in a "middle class" lifestyle who cares about generalisations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliceBB Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm not sure how that provides a counter argument to the post you replied to It doesn't. It wasn't intended as a serious survey. That said, it is based on some of the responses of people who fit the profile of middle class as defined by academic sociological models : positive attitude to education, positive attempt to lead a healthy lifestyle, and higher income. I heard someone say recently that Chavs are the polar opposite of the middle classes, because they (Chavs) have low incomes, they live in the here and now, value material possessions such as clothes and consumer goods way above education and they live off junk food because they cannot cook. The truth is perhaps that traditional models of the classes are obsolete. Immigration, property price inflation, high unemployment, cheap foreign travel, the raising of the school leaving age and huge expansion in higher education, Thatcher's destruction of the industrial base, changes in people's diets and eating habits have changed UK society much over the last 50 years that if we are to distinguish usefully between social groups we need new models. Which begs the question of how useful it in in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 The thing about the middle classes and Grammar schools, is the discipline. They are an institutions where students want to learn, are well behaved and they respect their teachers. Compare any Grammar school to 'Educating Yorkshire'. I think the discipline in the old Secondary Moderns was probably very different to today as well. I haven't been in a modern Grammar school for years but I would imagine they're not as I remember them anymore. As for 'Educating Yorkshire' I thought the teachers were brilliant and the kids a delight, though not the easiest to educate for sure. ---------- Post added 24-01-2014 at 01:04 ---------- It doesn't. It wasn't intended as a serious survey. That said, it is based on some of the responses of people who fit the profile of middle class as defined by academic sociological models : positive attitude to education, positive attempt to lead a healthy lifestyle, and higher income. I heard someone say recently that Chavs are the polar opposite of the middle classes, because they (Chavs) have low incomes, they live in the here and now, value material possessions such as clothes and consumer goods way above education and they live off junk food because they cannot cook. The truth is perhaps that traditional models of the classes are obsolete. Immigration, property price inflation, high unemployment, cheap foreign travel, the raising of the school leaving age and huge expansion in higher education, Thatcher's destruction of the industrial base, changes in people's diets and eating habits have changed UK society much over the last 50 years that if we are to distinguish usefully between social groups we need new models. Which begs the question of how useful it in in the first place... Once upon a time the working class was divided up into the deserving, and the undeserving poor. The undeserving were the n'ere do wells, the feckless, the unemployed, the drinkers, the criminal classes, etc etc. The deserving were the salt of the earth, the hard working, aspirational, self-improving etc etc. Now I think the deserving half have been absorbed into the lower middle class, ("We're all middle class now...") leaving the other half still known as the 'working class' or probably more accurately 'the underclass.' (still painfully unfair to many unemployed, but then it always was,) and easy to villify. This is obviously stereotyping, but there's no doubt the class system is still very much in existence, and as such, needs redefining if it is going to be used in discussions such as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psynuk Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Isn't it really hard to define middle class because its borders are so blurred? It's simpler to do it by elimination. We can easily agree on who; the 'elite', the wealthy and the upper class are. We can agree on who the; destitute, the poor and the lower classes are. The working class is also fairly easy up to a point, your average factory, mine, shop workers and a million other jobs. (this is including a lot of degree educated workers) If its not any of the above could you then say they are middle class? When your borderline, regarding which label to apply then you put them into the category below I'd say. And then to complicate things do the values you hold make you a 'class'? For example are there any middle class people on the Wyborn estate? Is it possible to live on a council estate and be middle class? It sounds like a contradiction in terms but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister M Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Isn't it really hard to define middle class because its borders are so blurred? It's simpler to do it by elimination. We can easily agree on who; the 'elite', the wealthy and the upper class are. We can agree on who the; destitute, the poor and the lower classes are. The working class is also fairly easy up to a point, your average factory, mine, shop workers and a million other jobs. (this is including a lot of degree educated workers) If its not any of the above could you then say they are middle class? When your borderline, regarding which label to apply then you put them into the category below I'd say. And then to complicate things do the values you hold make you a 'class'? For example are there any middle class people on the Wyborn estate? Is it possible to live on a council estate and be middle class? It sounds like a contradiction in terms but..... That's an interesting point. I live on a housing association estate, and even though as a part time employee I earn less that the official two thirds of the full time median earnings, I still define myself as middle class. The BBC did some intersting research in this area. It slightly complicates matters, but then class involves several factors. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppet2 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 As for 'Educating Yorkshire' I thought the teachers were brilliant and the kids a delight, though not the easiest to educate for sure. Please tell me you are not being serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Please tell me you are not being serious? Totally serious. Those teachers deserve a medal. They care, and know how to build relationships. And teach. I'm sure your idea of school is more or less the old grammar school model, and I'm not saying it wouldn't work for some kids, but it was very much of its time when kids in general had a lot more respect for teachers, parents, authority and the world was very different. Kids are much more worldly now. They know that if they call the teacher's bluff on the authority front, there's very little the teachers can do about it. So the secret is to not to get into face to face confrontation situations, but to difuse it before it gets to that stage. Often with humour, and if relationships are good, and respect has been earned on both sides, those situations will arise only rarely. You also have to make lessons interesting and relevent and set expectations high, but know which battles to fight. It's not easy. I can see why some people might be appalled by this, but all I can say is let them come into a mixed ability Comprehensive on a tough multicultural estate and have a bash at teaching a bunch of hormonal, bolshy teenagers, and see where their style discipline gets them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeMac Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Please tell me you are not being serious? I'd be being serious about it. What didn't you like; The amazing patience of the teachers, or the diversity of the students? Both were fantastic in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliceBB Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'd be being serious about it. What didn't you like; The amazing patience of the teachers, or the diversity of the students? Both were fantastic in my opinion. Agreed. They all deserved medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erebus Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 With less government comes more privatisiation, and as private firms through PFI contracts own many schools, and require payment for 30 years for providing services, why not make the public pay double for stuff? Pfi charges many times the usual costs, as apparently ther is risk involved, as if the government or councils will not pay, but that is h9ow clever lawyers run rings around ouor semi educated representatives, while stuffing them with corporate goodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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