ivanava Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I am sure that if your beloved Michael Gove agreed with you he would have got rid of teachers some time ago. The fact that he hasn't suggests that in the eyes of the Education Secretary at least, they are still necessary. I agree with you that some content-based, factual chunks of the curriculum can, up to a point - be learned via internet resources, by bright, well-motivated pupils. But the average (grade C) GCSE pupil will struggle with =two weeks' worth of autonomous learning in each subject s/he studies. And you still haven't explained what those kids would be doing in lessons when they come back. If you let them stay in lessons and continue with the curriculum, they will have missed 2 weeks' work and probably not understand the next section of the programme of study. If you let them use that time to catch up autonomously (and probably unproductively) with the stuff they missed when on holiday, they will miss the new teaching. Please enlighten us. You are finding problems that didn't used to exist, kids always managed to catch up the work that they missed, maybe the teachers of today aren't as resourceful or motivated as the teacher from my school days. It is still possible to learn without being taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs gough Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The fine is £60 per parent, per child and the starting fine doubles if not paid within a certain amout of time. A 2 parent family with 3 children would be fined £360 to start with but this would rise if not paid. ---------- Post added 25-01-2014 at 20:38 ---------- I've always taken my children out of school for holidays during the month of July, all exams are over and school is getting ready to close. Permission was always asked and was always granted to take the children out in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliceBB Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) You are finding problems that didn't used to exist, kids always managed to catch up the work that they missed, maybe the teachers of today aren't as resourceful or motivated as the teacher from my school days. If you think the practical question I have outlined, ie how the teaching of the National Curriculum and preparation for public examinations is to be organised to accommodate pupils being off, left right and centre through the school year, does not constitute a problem, then please answer my questions (see emboldened parts of previous posts). It is simply not good enough to mumble about things being better 'in the olden days'. In fact, I suspect you have no evidence whatsoever about how or to what extent pupils other than yourself caught up after absences in days of yore. How could you possibly know? If you personally have a subjective impression that you managed to catch up satisfactorily without teacher intervention, that may have been a case of 'rose-tinted spectacles', or because the curriculum was more text-based in those days and there wasn't any coursework or much class interaction - I have no idea when you went to school, or how boring your teachers normally were, or how much they expected you to learn it all for yourselves while they sat at the front of the class and dozed, or did their knitting (as one of my teachers used to!). That would certainly influence your expectation of how much work you did independently. I think I probably taught myself more German than my teacher ever taught me, but that isn't to say I couldn't have learned even more with good, active and demanding teaching. Teacher these days are expected to be all singing and all dancing and to teach actively all through the lesson. They cannot on the one hand be expected to do that then told that pupils can manage just as well without them. Make your mind up! In the end... I taught for 30 years and have observed the effects of pupil absence on a much larger scale than you have. And with respect, you are talking nonsense. It is still possible to learn without being taught I cannot disagree with that, but I do not think we can say with any confidence that the average GCSE candidate will get as good a grade without being taught by a teacher. You really don't have a clue how secondary schools operate, do you? I suggest you go and sit in on some middle-ability GCSE lessons for a week or a fortnight, and then come back and tell us that teachers are not necessary in the learning process. Observe with particular attention the kids who were away the previous lesson/week and see the problems they have 'catching up'. Then perhaps you will realise that your suggestion was ridiculous. Edited January 25, 2014 by aliceBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If you think the practical scenarios I have outlined, ie how the teaching year is to be organised to accommodate pupils being off left right and centre through the year, does not constitute a problem, then please answer my questions (see emboldened parts of previous posts). It is simply not good enough to mumble about things being better in the olden days. I suspect you have no evidence whatsoever about how or to what extent pupils other than yourself caught up after absences in days of yore. How could you possibly know? If you personally managed to catch up satisfactorily without teacher intervention, that may have been because the curriculum was more text-based in those days and there wasn't any coursework or much class interaction - I have no idea when you went to school. You may well have been more motivated than the average GCSE candidate today. But I taught for 30 years and have observed the effects of pupil absence on a much larger scale than you have. So with respect, you are talking nonsense. I cannot disagree with that, but I do not think we can say with any confidence that the average GCSE candidate will get as good a grade without being taught by a teacher. You really don't have a clue how secondary schools operate, do you? I suggest you go and sit in on some lessons for a week and then come back and tell us that teachers are not necessary in the learning process. Yes I have evidence, children used to take time off school and catch up, children and adult take and pass exams without teachers. You clearly think teachers are required to facilitate learning, I don't, we will just have to agree to disagree. A desire to learn and enjoyment of the subject are far more important than the teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliceBB Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Yes I have evidence, children used to take time off school and catch up, children and adult take and pass exams without teachers. You clearly think teachers are required to facilitate learning, I don't, we will just have to agree to disagree. A desire to learn and enjoyment of the subject are far more important than the teach. No, you do not have evidence at all. You don't even seem to understand what constitutes valid evidence. All you are doing is making a vague, unsupported assertion such as: children used to take time off school and catch up, children and adult take and pass exams without teachers.That is not evidence. It is just your perception/opinion, and wholly subjective. Or do you have some statistics? How do you know they caught up? How do you know that they wouldn't have got a better grade if they hadn't been away? OK, so they 'passed the exam', but then so do most kids nowadays who go off on holiday. They just tend to get a worse grade than their teachers know they could with full attendance.. You clearly think teachers are required to facilitate learning, I don't, So how do you rationalise your demand that teachers stand in fornt of classes for even more weeks of the year than they do already?! If we aren't necessary, what's the point?! A short (taught!) course in Critical Thinking might help you argue more effectively. You have lost, hands down, so far. ---------- Post added 25-01-2014 at 22:08 ---------- maybe the teachers of today aren't as resourceful or motivated as the teacher from my school days. Go on, then. Suggest some of the practical steps one of your 'motitvated resourceful teachers' could take to solve the conundrum I have described and asked you several times to address. You have not made a single suggestion in response. (Probably because there are none that are reasonable - you cannot make order out of chaos with no resources!) But I'd be fascinated to hear what your superstar teachers would have done with the 3 or 4 kids in each lesson who had missed the previous fortnight's work...and who might not have wanted to be in school in the first place....and who couldn't read very well, in some cases. Edited January 25, 2014 by aliceBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 No, you do not have evidence at all. You don't even seem to understand what constitutes valid evidence. I think it best if we just agree to disagree, because you appear unable to discuss the subject without insinuating that I am stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliceBB Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think it best if we just agree to disagree, because you appear unable to discuss the subject without insinuating that I am stupid. I have never intentionally implied you are stupid (although your original suggestion is, for reasons I have explained). What you seem to be (on the basis of what you have posted in this thread) is ill-informed on the subject of the English secondary education system and and unable to present a coherent argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penistone999 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Instead of fining parents the Government should crack down on holiday companies who think its ok to rip off parents during school holidays. If these companies wernt allowed to double / treble their prices in the school holidays no one would take their kids out in term time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I have never intentionally implied you are stupid (although your original suggestion is, for reasons I have explained). What you seem to be (on the basis of what you have posted in this thread) is ill-informed on the subject of the English secondary education system and and unable to present a coherent argument. See there you go again with the intentional insults, you don't appear to be able to help yourself, hopefully you aren't a teacher, because if you are there is no hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Instead of fining parents the Government should crack down on holiday companies who think its ok to rip off parents during school holidays. If these companies wernt allowed to double / treble their prices in the school holidays no one would take their kids out in term time. What rules do you think should be implemented to stop companies charging more for popular items? What would the companies do about their increased costs during busy periods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts