Gove : Bring Back 'Old Fashioned' Punishments

[ivanava]

But if those kids truly misbehaved, then they just would be expelled already. They would not be in the school afterall. When you mentioned that the children collectively acted up. Then this is what you have to do. It has several reasons. One to warn those who did not misbehave what will happen if they did. Others, will also know if they are the culprit, and they won't be shamed this way publically which will make them even more upset and cry.

 

 

I didn't say they collectively misbehaved, I said a small group, a minority misbehaved yet the teacher punished the entire class.

 

I can't think a single good reason why anyone would think that punishing the innocent is better than snaking the guilty.

[salsafan]

I didn't say they collectively misbehaved, I said a small group, a minority misbehaved yet the teacher punished the entire class.

 

I can't think a single good reason why anyone would think that punishing the innocent is better than snaking the guilty.

 

No no. I meant my comment previously was to respond to this:

 

Teachers at a Lancashire comprehensive who walked out over the unruly behaviour of their pupils have threatened one-hour strikes unless their headteacher helps them restore discipline.

 

Seventy of the 80 staff at Darwen Vale high school did not turn up to take lessons on Thursday, saying students are out of control, pushing them, challenging them to fights, and threatening to film their lessons and post them online.

 

The above situation was or must have been a collective group of children acting up which drove the teacher to ask for support from the head master.

 

I did read the comment that you then responded with, and if this was done when you were a child, then yes, I acknowledge your view and your approach, even if I am uncertain in its chance of it working. As to my view, I still think that there are other variables in the equation which is required before making this work.

 

I am guessing that the above situation is not a case of a few children misbehaving. Because if it was, then I would not expect the teachers to collectively walk out as then this is also allowing a small group of children to hold the school to ransom and I would have thought that the teachers had more common sense and responsibility than this alone.

 

When you are a child, you do not know what is right and what is wrong, which is the whole point here. This is why parents and teachers must also have the patience too. You and I know what is right and what is wrong now, and that is because we are so much older, and we have since learnt in our life time what that truly means. But remember that this is a school, and that children still need to be led, shown, or taught what is right, and what is wrong too. It is not punishing as it is disciplining, and this method of discipline really is not necessarily for you to judge if the headmaster is in that situation, as you can indeed take your child out of that specific school and into another where you find the method to be more acceptable by your terms. That is why most schools do and can still take children in even in mid-year. But as with everything in this country, you still have to do the best that you can with the cards that you are dealt with.

 

 

"I can't think a single good reason why anyone would think that punishing the innocent is better than snaking the guilty."

 

Because we are still a Christian country ? Just kidding.

Yes, if they can be found, then maybe they can indeed be isolated, or channel more closely to find their sweet spot so that they can apply themselves. Teachers do have a lot of tools up their sleeves you know.

[ronthenekred]

Clearly in your scenario the rest of the company will take some form of action against the individual, so what actions do you propose the rest of the class take against the disruptive kids.

 

Ah, I see. Now you're looking to box me in in that typical way you think you own the upper hand, sorry, doesn't work.

 

With a good commanding mind and the understanding of how children's heads work the possibilities are endless. The threat of violence is exactly that and no more, other than the threat becoming real. That in my opinion is a negative.

 

Good luck with your quest but I can tell you now, you're on a looser.

 

And you still avoided the question, if abuse fails, then what?

 

and

 

The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.

 

Does that include violence?

 

Simply put do you advocate as a punishment to children, violence?

[ivanava]

Ah, I see. Now you're looking to box me in in that typical way you think you own the upper hand, sorry, doesn't work.

 

With a good commanding mind and the understanding of how children's heads work the possibilities are endless. The threat of violence is exactly that and no more, other than the threat becoming real. That in my opinion is a negative.

 

Good luck with your quest but I can tell you now, you're on a looser.

 

And you still avoided the question, if abuse fails, then what?

 

and

 

 

 

Does that include violence?

 

Simply put do you advocate as a punishment to children, violence?

 

Well it was your idea, it seams like you want to remove the responsibility of naughty children from adults and onto other kids.

And a deterrent can only work if everyone thinks it will be used, the first time you avoid using it when it is necessary, it becomes useless as a deterrent.

 

---------- Post added 18-03-2014 at 20:58 ----------

 

No no. I meant my comment previously was to respond to this:

 

 

 

The above situation was or must have been a collective group of children acting up which drove the teacher to ask for support from the head master.

 

I did read the comment that you then responded with, and if this was done when you were a child, then yes, I acknowledge your view and your approach, even if I am uncertain in its chance of it working. As to me there are other variables in the equation.

 

I am guessing that the above situation is not a case of a few children misbehaving. Because if it was, then I would not expect the teachers to collectively walk out as then this is also allowing a small group of children to hold the school to ransom and I would have thought that the teachers had more common sense and responsibility than this alone.

 

When you are a child, you do not know what is right and what is wrong, which is the whole point here. This is why parents and teachers must also have the patience too. You and I know what is right and what is wrong now, and that is because we are so much older, and we have since learnt in our life time what that truly means. But remember that this is a school, and that children still need to be led, shown, or taught what is right, and what is wrong too. It is not punishing as it is disciplining, and this method of discipline really is not necessarily for you to judge if the headmaster is in that situation, as you can indeed take your child out of that specific school and into another where you find the method to be more acceptable by your terms. That is why most schools do and can still take children in even in mid-year. But as with everything in this country, you still have to do the best that you can with the cards that you are dealt with.

 

 

"I can't think a single good reason why anyone would think that punishing the innocent is better than snaking the guilty."

 

Because we are still a Christian country ? Just kidding.

Yes, if they can be found, then maybe they can indeed be isolated, or channel more closely to find their sweet spot so that they can apply themselves. Teachers do have a lot of tools up their sleeves you know.

 

The question you have to ask yourself is why did a collective group of children think they could do as they pleased, the only logical answer is that there is no longer an effective deterrent to stop them.

[salsafan]

....

 

The question you have to ask yourself is why did a collective group of children think they could do as they pleased, the only logical answer is that there is no longer an effective deterrent to stop them.

Then you have to understand sociology, psychology, and also group dynamics. The only reason why sometimes a group of people, or a group of children do not follow, or that they do indeed follow others in a mindless way is indeed because of a psychological phenomena. There is a kind of social dynamic even within that kind of setting.

 

They are children, and should indeed be kept innocent, until they are ready to learn that bit more about the world. When they are ready, then they more or less will comply and be more reasonable. As with adults too really.

[ivanava]

Then you have to understand sociology, psychology, and also group dynamics. The only reason why sometimes a group of people, or a group of children do not follow, or that they do indeed follow others in a mindless way is indeed because of a psychological phenomena. There is a kind of social dynamic even within that kind of setting.

 

They are children, and should indeed be kept innocent, until they are ready to learn that bit more about the world. When they are ready, then they more or less will comply and be more reasonable. As with adults too really.

 

How does any of that stop a group of kids effectively taking over the school, there are kids running wild in the streets and adults appear powerless to stop them because for now there isn't an effective deterrent.

[Penistone999]

There are plenty of ways of addressing these issues without resorting to physical punishment; I'm guessing your first port of call would be to bring back the cane?

 

Where as im assuming you would prefer to sit the little darlings down and talk to them about their "Issues" and ask them politely not to do it again.

[salsafan]

How does any of that stop a group of kids effectively taking over the school, there are kids running wild in the streets and adults appear powerless to stop them because for now there isn't an effective deterrent.

 

Well, when I was a child at school. When I was a bit alone and shy, I would stand by the dinner ladies, or the teachers, and then she would encourage me to play with others. Whereas there are always guys who play football and was more active. They are also encouraged to channel their activeness out in a game. So as you can see, teachers, or dinner ladies who see a situation from brewing, can always nip things in the bud. Even if children are not aware that their teacher is watching them, but they do. It is always best to encourage children to find common friendships amongst a few, so that they can both learn about themselves, and about another too. That is how you build up communication skills, and also check where your own learning lies.

 

The article in the OP is indeed about encouraging collaboration as well as cohesion too. You are so much more aware when in a group, and a child can know if they have to learn to co-operate than when they do not.

 

Sometimes it is a "carrot and stick" strategy that you have to apply, as my sister say. Not necessarily just consistent harsh punishment, without any reward. Reward in the sense that it is a motivation and a direction which the child likes to move towards. You will see the nature of their personalities so much more when you see them on a daily basis. By providing activities or school work which channels them to achieve and strive for themselves is what matters in the end.

 

Obviously not all parents agree with this sentiment and I am sure that they prefer a different method but it is how I would approach it too. To raise a generic overall rounded person.

[ivanava]

Well, when I was a child at school. When I was a bit alone and shy, I would stand by the dinner ladies, or the teachers, and then she would encourage me to play with others. Whereas there are always guys who play football and was more active. They are also encouraged to channel their activeness out in a game. So as you can see, teachers, or dinner ladies who see a situation from brewing, can always nip things in the bud. Even if children are not aware that their teacher is watching them, but they do. It is always best to encourage children to find common friendships amongst a few, so that they can both learn about themselves, and about another too. That is how you build up communication skills, and also check where your own learning lies.

 

The article in the OP is indeed about encouraging collaboration as well as cohesion too. You are so much more aware when in a group, and a child can know if they have to learn to co-operate than when they do not.

 

Sometimes it is a "carrot and stick" strategy that you have to apply, as my sister say. Not necessarily just consistent harsh punishment, without any reward. Reward in the sense that it is a motivation and a direction which the child likes to move towards. You will see the nature of their personalities so much more when you see them on a daily basis. By providing activities or school work which channels them to achieve and strive for themselves is what matters in the end.

 

Obviously not all parents agree with this sentiment and I am sure that they prefer a different method but it is how I would approach it too. To raise a generic overall rounded person.

 

Sorry I'm just not getting how any of this would have stopped the kids effectively taking over the school.

 

Teachers have warned that disruptive behaviour in classrooms has escalated sharply in recent years, so what can be done to turn this around.

 

It looks to me that as discipline as declined, ban behavior as escalated, kids have learned that they can pretty much do as they like.

[buck]

Clearly in your scenario the rest of the company will take some form of action against the individual, so what actions do you propose the rest of the class take against the disruptive kids.

What Ronthenkred is talking about is quite common in the military, especially in basic training where recruits are normally just leaving school. Punishment is passed out to the whole group for the transgressions off one or two. It usually brings on isolation from the mainstream for the offenders until they mend their ways. It can also result in a dishonorable discharge, which is a lot worse punishment than it sounds. Unfortunately, some form of corporal punishment by the other rookies is possible. If he has been found to be really unclean, he might be scrubbed with a hard brush, which will hurt his dignity more than anything else.How all this could be applied to schoolchildren, I'm not sure. But we blame our teachers, and our politicians, and not the parents whose job it is to apply discipline before school age, and don't.