Gove : Bring Back 'Old Fashioned' Punishments

[ivanava]

What Ronthenkred is talking about is quite common in the military, especially in basic training where recruits are normally just leaving school. Punishment is passed out to the whole group for the transgressions off one or two. It usually brings on isolation from the mainstream for the offenders until they mend their ways. It can also result in a dishonorable discharge, which is a lot worse punishment than it sounds. Unfortunately, some form of corporal punishment by the other rookies is possible. If he has been found to be really unclean, he might be scrubbed with a hard brush, which will hurt his dignity more than anything else.How all this could be applied to schoolchildren, I'm not sure. But we blame our teachers, and our politicians, and not the parents whose job it is to apply discipline before school age, and don't.

 

Yes I understood all that I just couldn't understand how such practices could be applied to children, and I don't blame the teachers, their hand are tied. I do however blame teachers when they punish child that have been well behaved, if you are going to be punished regardless of your good behavior, you might as well misbehave.

[salsafan]

Yes I understood all that I just couldn't understand how such practices could be applied to children, and I don't blame the teachers, their hand are tied. I do however blame teachers when they punish child that have been well behaved, if you are going to be punished regardless of your good behavior, you might as well misbehave.

 

In the military, and if I understand the sentiment behind that, it is that the individuals were challenged with their own aggression to motivate as to prove that they are a man. But in a school, children are taught to be kind and at the same time collaborative. If the teacher is a seasoned one and know how to get the best of the child, then they would have done this already. So rewards are those activities which the child enjoys the most. This is to motivate them to work towards this goal. If they fail then they do not get the prize. "Carrots and sticks". Carrots to lead, sticks to push. Not in the literal sense.

 

Maybe in this day and age, we do need to use social media technology of one form or another to really lead the child, but they should indeed be shown the good and bad of the social mediums. You cannot change the world sometimes and you cannot change globalisation and what the good and bad side of society that it brings to the child, but you can at least educate what is the good or the bad elements of it too, and to allow the child to critique this themselves too. Also to protect them from harmful elements too, and show them the better method so that they can take this with them into adult life.

 

The other thing is maybe the educator should indeed focus on is that, a child should not be overexposed to too many technology or information, as this does affect their own brain's development, and creates ADHD or ADD, or whatever overactive neural networks that exists and create a very insecure and paranoid child. They should indeed be groomed to focus more on sleep, their own health, and to also play too.

 

The reward system like housepoints, or school trips should indeed be emphasized too. It is a way to form a discipline into the child to note that in the adult world, you eventually need to earn your way. So this is not a bad thing, even though you may see that as a parent, that it is unfair, but in a way, it is teaching the child empathy also, or to talk to their own peers to stop the behaviour, or to remind them not to lose house points and so forth. This creates emotional ties, and calms a child more too. Because then they will have friends.

[amberleaf808]

When I was a kid we did PE in our pants and vest. We got the belt a Thick leather belt on the hand. I'm not sure getting hit with a belt standing in your pants and vest would work today! ...... To any American readers when I say pants I mean under pants,( underwear) Not trousers.

[salsafan]

Sorry I'm just not getting how any of this would have stopped the kids effectively taking over the school.

 

Teachers have warned that disruptive behaviour in classrooms has escalated sharply in recent years, so what can be done to turn this around.

 

It looks to me that as discipline as declined, ban behavior as escalated, kids have learned that they can pretty much do as they like.

 

Child psychology and social group dynamics. Teachers need to be supported and given the confidence again to tackle this kind of scenarios. If two child are trying to play up, then that lesson needs to be in a setting where split group work will work. The child may not like this, but it will reduce their behaviour somewhat and dampen the effect a little bit. I think the introduction of league table created havoc in the way teachers deliver the lessons which is probably why we have our current educational system.

[ronthenekred]

Well it was your idea, it seams like you want to remove the responsibility of naughty children from adults and onto other kids.

And a deterrent can only work if everyone thinks it will be used, the first time you avoid using it when it is necessary, it becomes useless as a deterrent.

 

Nope, but there you go again bastardising my words.

It's giving responsibility to children as a collective with the teacher or parent in overall control to see it doesn't get out of control. If the majority of children mark out an unruly child, that will have more effect than your solution to using violence, and that's only one instance or method. It works. The thing is, most children have a knack of sorting their own problems without the threat of Daddy standing over them with a belt...it's called growing up.

 

I get the impression (I'm being generous) you think violence is a solution, the reason I've come to that conclusion is because you've repeatedly avoided direct simple questions asked.

 

You argue that some children never get hit or punished and still develop issues. I put it to you, do those same said kids develop issues because they weren't abused?

 

Child: I'm really messed up.

Analyst: Why do you think that?

Child: My dad didn't beat me.

 

Even a well behaved kid can eventually go off the rails and the only conclusion is something deeper's going on, you have a solution though, right?

 

Be careful, your pants may fall down.

 

You cane my child as a guardian /teacher, should I disagree, am I allowed to to knock a couple of teeth from your mouth? Your act after all would be perceived by me as you being out of control that needs a bit of correctional justice.

 

---------- Post added 19-03-2014 at 01:04 ----------

 

When I was a kid we did PE in our pants and vest. We got the belt a Thick leather belt on the hand. I'm not sure getting hit with a belt standing in your pants and vest would work today! ...... To any American readers when I say pants I mean under pants,( underwear) Not trousers.

 

I'm lost as to why it would have worked then, let alone why now. And yes, I was at times the victim of some pervert or other. The only recollection I have is resentment for the cretins. Some teachers on the other hand were real professionals which I and others benefited from.

[ivanava]

Nope, but there you go again bastardising my words.

That isn't my intention, I'm just trying to understand why you think it is appropriate to punish the innocent along with the guilty.

 

It's giving responsibility to children as a collective with the teacher or parent in overall control to see it doesn't get out of control. If the majority of children mark out an unruly child, that will have more effect than your solution to using violence, and that's only one instance or method. It works. The thing is, most children have a knack of sorting their own problems without the threat of Daddy standing over them with a belt...it's called growing up.

I have spent the occasional night in the rain running round a parade ground with a riffle above my head because of the actions of the one, and yes the one was dealt with, but it was unpleasant for the one. I still can't understand why anyone would think this is appropriate for children.

 

Maybe we could use this method in the wider society and punish the relatives and friends of anyone that does something wrong, maybe in school we could punish all the teachers for the inappropriate action of one teacher. My guess though is that it would cause massive resentment and very few adults would accept being punished for something they didn't. Or do you think it is only appropriate to use collective punish on children.

 

 

 

I get the impression (I'm being generous) you think violence is a solution, the reason I've come to that conclusion is because you've repeatedly avoided direct simple questions asked.

 

There you go again bastardising my words.

 

 

You argue that some children never get hit or punished and still develop issues. I put it to you, do those same said kids develop issues because they weren't abused?

In some cases they do, they learn that minor mistermeaners aren't punished, so they push the boundaries and their bad behavior gets worse, in some cases developing into more serious crimes in later life.

 

 

 

Child: I'm really messed up.

Analyst: Why do you think that?

Child: My dad didn't beat me.

 

Child: I'm doing really well in life.

Analyst: Why do you think that?

Child: My dad gave me a clip round the ear when I was naughty and I soon learned that good behavior is rewarded whilst bad behavior is punished.

 

 

Even a well behaved kid can eventually go off the rails and the only conclusion is something deeper's going on, you have a solution though, right?

 

 

You cane my child as a guardian /teacher, should I disagree, am I allowed to to knock a couple of teeth from your mouth? Your act after all would be perceived by me as you being out of control that needs a bit of correctional justice.

You punish my child for something they didn't do, should I simply accept that or abduct you and lock you up for a couple of hours. And in my experience the type of person that would knock a couple of teeth out of the mouth of a teacher is the type of person that would knock them out of their kids.

 

 

 

I'm lost as to why it would have worked then, let alone why now. And yes, I was at times the victim of some pervert or other. The only recollection I have is resentment for the cretins. Some teachers on the other hand were real professionals which I and others benefited from.

 

So you must be starting to realise that what works for one might not work for others and what works for others might not work on you. Some kids will behave because they don't want to be hit, some will behave because they don't want detention, some will behave because they don't want to do lines. If the only punishment is collective detention, its not going to deter everyone and will actualy encourage some kids to misbehave.

[scousemouse]

Seems strange to me that parents are not allowed to give their children a swift

'fourpenny one' yet teachers would be allowed to administer a kind of punishment that parents aren't.......................?

[Halibut]

Seems strange to me that parents are not allowed to give their children a swift

'fourpenny one' yet teachers would be allowed to administer a kind of punishment that parents aren't.......................?

 

Come again? Teachers aren't allowed to hit children nor should they be.

[erebus]

Well we ow know that grow ups in the UK are some of the least educated in the developed world. We also know that private education allows the minority to rule the great unwashed.

 

So WHAT WOULD ANYONE EXPECT FROM SUCH ADULTS WITH SUCH UNDERDEVELOPED PARENTING SKILLS??????

 

Education for them that cannot pay for it, is semi industrial day care, so that the parents can scrabble to survive on lowish wages, where classes are generally large. We all know that there is a legal limit to looking after small children/infants preschool. One carer to supervise around 4 children. We also know that class sizes i private schools are also small. We know that classes of 30 to 40+ is not illegal at state schools.

 

But the parents cannot do maths, ad with 30 kids in a lesson, how much time can each kid get, when teaching the subject takes up most of the time. Well it seems it is just a few seconds, if they are lucky. So its not really education, its a form of institutionalised child care.

 

So the conservatives are right, why have trained teachers to educate in state schools when they are needed i private schools more. So let the unqualified supervise the ignorant, the future benefit scroungers, the inept thieves and criminals. Let us all pretend we are concerned, when why waste good money on a education system for mainly failures. Let us be honest and realise its day care for benefit of semi / poor educated parents that are being forced to work for crap money, thus keeping everyone off the streets ad the parents exhausted ad useless at dealing with their kids.

 

Maybe we should realise that by incorporating state schools and the prison service under the same authority, it would actually save the tax payer, which are those earning over 200K, thus keeping those who deserve the better things in life, a setter social environment to enjoy their lives.

[alchresearch]

Why do we have to use "old fashioned" punishments? Lets create some new and zany punishments - like pushing a pea a mile with their nose, or put in a room and forced to learn the mnemonic that helps you remember all of Britain's monarchs.