Fed up of non believers

[salsafan]

I have no doubts at all that there are intelligent being with substantially more knowledge and power than we humans, but they are not Gods. The universe is everything than exists, therefor there is nothing other than the universe that exists.

 

---------- Post added 03-03-2014 at 19:22 ----------

 

 

Its part of some humans imagination.

Hm. This is whereby I find the language itself very limiting.

 

So to you, you define this as "imagination", but how do you know that this cannot be associated as "ghost" or a form of "God" ? With Paganism, and for some believers of various degree of spirituality or Beliefs, there is no central God. Yet, for other religions, there is indeed a central God. That "chance" of something happening, because you believe in the mere idea or the imagination of an existence of a God, makes and control certain things to happen.

 

To some people, the "imagination" part is what they try to quantify as whether the existence of God exists or not. Because, how does an "image" gets into your mind to begin with ? Especially if you were not taught to think first. Where does the idea or the originating source comes from ?

[ivanava]

If these beings are part of creation, they wouldn't be considered to be God's at all, they'd simply be another integral part of creation. What I said is- 'How could you possibly know that nothing exists beyond the known universe?'. Who says that the laws of physics, contemporary science and human logic even apply to whatever caused the universe to pop into existence without cause?

 

I haven't claimed that nothing exists beyond the known universe, in fact I'm happy to say that the known universe is an insignificant part of an infinite universe, I don't have an issue with believing that some where in the infinite universe will be life forms capable of manipulating matter and even creating life, but they are not Gods, they are just lifeforms that are more advanced than humans.

 

---------- Post added 03-03-2014 at 19:48 ----------

 

Hm. This is whereby I find the language itself very limiting.

 

So to you, you define this as "imagination", but how do you know that this cannot be associated as "ghost" or a form of "God" ? With Paganism, and for some believers of various degree of spirituality or Beliefs, there is no central God. Yet, for other religions, there is indeed a central God. That "chance" of something happening, because you believe in the mere idea or the imagination of an existence of a God, makes and control certain things to happen.

 

To some people, the "imagination" part is what they try to quantify as whether the existence of God exists or not. Because, how does an "image" gets into your mind to begin with ? Especially if you were not taught to think first. Where does the idea or the originating source comes from ?

Our imagination, our ability to think and form new ideas.

[salsafan]

...

Our imagination, our ability to think and form new ideas.

The thing is, some people do not associate this as "thinking". (And I am indeed trying to use very generic words here to describe a concept.)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24660239

 

Some people just do not dissect any further and question the "why" more than they see simply what it is in front of them.

[danot]

I haven't claimed that nothing exists beyond the known universe, in fact I'm happy to say that the known universe is an insignificant part of an infinite universe, I don't have an issue with believing that some where in the infinite universe will be life forms capable of manipulating matter and even creating life, but they are not Gods, they are just lifeforms that are more advanced than humans.

I'm in total agreement with you, but I'm not talking about superior lifeforms that may or may not be out there, I'm talking about how you are so certain that nothing exists beyond the known universe! If you are right, and nothing, absolutely nothing exists beyond or outside of the know universe, then the universe must have popped into existence without cause, that's the logical conclusion anyway. But what makes you so sure that "logic", contemporary science, or our understanding of the general laws of physics even apply to the unexplainable phenomena responsible for creating the universe without cause?

[ivanava]

I'm in total agreement with you, but I'm not talking about superior lifeforms that may or may not be out there, I'm talking about how you are so certain that nothing exists beyond the known universe! If you are right, and nothing, absolutely nothing exists beyond or outside of the know universe, then the universe must have popped into existence without cause, that's the logical conclusion anyway. But what makes you so sure that "logic", contemporary science, or our understanding of the general laws of physics even apply to the unexplainable phenomena responsible for creating the universe without cause?

 

I haven't said that nothing exists behold the known universe and I have just explained that I think the known universe is just part of an infinite universe. I also don't believe it popped into existence from nothing because nothing isn't possible.

[Waldo]

Waldo, I think you misunderstood the point of the analogy. I deliberately used a graspable concept to get the point across on how you can be agnostic and atheist. It still applies even if you change it to god - or whatever god is claimed to be.

 

No problem, and thanks for being patient with me by the way.

 

You could also liken the idea of grasping the god concept, to one of the characters in a Shakespeare play, trying to have an awareness of Shakespeare himself. This is not possible, because the character (like us) only exists within a limited context, the mind of Shakespeare (and later on paper of course).

 

Another thing occurs to me...

 

Assuming my definition of 'believing'; if you have two people, person A is ordinarily considered a theist, while person B is an atheist. For a moment in time, both of these people are having no thoughts or mental activity regarding the existence of god; I would suggest that they are qualitatively the same with regards to their theological positions, at that moment in time.

 

There is nothing to distinguish between a theist and an atheist, when they are not contemplating (or mentally entertaining the notion of the existence of) god.

[danot]

I haven't said that nothing exists behold the known universe and I have just explained that I think the known universe is just part of an infinite universe. I also don't believe it popped into existence from nothing because nothing isn't possible.

 

You said "The universe is everything that exists, therefore, nothing but the universe exists."

 

Which, if we were to apply logic, nothing could have created the universe as nothing else existed before it, so, it must have just popped into existence without cause, unless, it never did 'pop into existence but has just always existed without a beginning and without cause. But can we be certain that Our understanding of the general laws of physic or contemporary science or human logic even apply to this unexplainable phenomena?

[salsafan]

I haven't said that nothing exists behold the known universe and I have just explained that I think the known universe is just part of an infinite universe. I also don't believe it popped into existence from nothing because nothing isn't possible.

 

Some people associate this as "chance", but then this is also when and if you dissect it and associate it against science, like that guy Dr Emoto, trying to fit this "chance" into science, he found the cause to be energy and waves in its deepest subparticle level. But there are still a lot of unknown and guesses even at that. Not questioning so deeply allows one to see the simplicity in life itself. The question is never "do you know the truth", but it is about "how deep are you digging to seek the truth?" At the basic level, or at the atomic level ? It is maybe also by chance or not that people are exposed to different things across the globe, which created the varying degree or religions, and of varying degree of philosophies and ethics.

Edited March 3, 2014 by salsafan

[ivanava]

You said "The universe is everything that exists, therefore, nothing but the universe exists."

 

Which, if we were to apply logic, nothing could have created the universe as nothing else existed before it, so, it must have just popped into existence without cause, unless, it never did 'pop into existence but has just always existed without a beginning and without cause. But can we be certain that Our understanding of the general laws of physic or contemporary science or human logic even apply to this unexplainable phenomena?

 

How is it unexplainable, obviously we don't know everything but what we do know fits nicely with a universe that always existed, we have no concept of nothing, we have never witnessed nothing, we have no reason at all to assume that nothing is possible. The laws of physics as we know them say that we can't create energy or matter from nothing, but they are interchangeable. So whilst the visible universe might not have always been as it is now, it as always existed.

[salsafan]

How is it unexplainable, obviously we don't know everything but what we do know fits nicely with a universe that always existed, we have no concept of nothing, we have never witnessed nothing, we have no reason at all to assume that nothing is possible. The laws of physics as we know them say that we can't create energy or matter from nothing, but they are interchangeable. So whilst the visible universe might not have always been as it is now, it as always existed.

 

But you have to remember one important point, modern science came later. Majority of major religions came first. There was a big turning point in which it split very far apart into what you see today.