Fed up of non believers

[mjw47]

We are not at variance my friend. There is more evidence for leprechauns. If Ivanana has "proof" she should produce it, she will have done more than any one has done for at least 2000 years.

 

Yes my point exactly. And I lived and holidayed in Ireland for many years ( still visit family every year ) an Aunt of mine who was a major pee taker had me convinced that Leprechauns existed, in my defence I was very young.

 

I spent many happy, if fruitless hours, looking for them accompanied by two dogs, whilst doing a bit of rabbit hunting at the same time.

 

Caught quite a few rabbits, no look with the little people.

 

Never went looking for God.

[ivanava]

The atheist is telling the theist to prove it, not trying themselves to prove it.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 14:41 ----------

 

 

Only if you have something against which to compare it...

 

If the universe were empty of matter, then spacetime would collapse and there would be no universe.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 14:43 ----------

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=14154

This is the bit I have difficulty imagining, the big bang is claimed to have created everything including the vacuum of space. I can imagine the big bank happening within the an infinite vacuum, but not one that creates the vacuum, because that then leaves us with what caused it, how can everything come from nothing and how do we know that nothing is even possible.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 19:44 ----------

 

We are not at variance my friend. There is more evidence for leprechauns. If Ivanana has "proof" she should produce it, she will have done more than any one has done for at least 2000 years.

 

When something is impossible it requires no proof, I know for definite that many things don't exist and won't happen, and I know because they are not possible.

 

Some thing that are claimed to exist can be tested, Santa for instance, it is claimed that he gives every child a toy at Christmas, so when every child doesn't get a toy from Santa you have the proof that Santa does not exist.

 

The same rules apply to God, the claims made about God can be tested and when those tests fail, you have the proof that God does not exist. It might turn out that some supper powerful alien sparked life on earth, some people might decide to worship such a powerful being, but this does not make it a God. It is just another life form with much greater powers than our own.

Edited March 5, 2014 by ivanava

[mjw47]

By that definition, theists who argue against creationism are atheists.

 

Could also say theism is the uncontrollable urge to argue with atheists - and an inability to accept reality or discern fact from fiction.

 

Not really, Theists are prepared to believe in God and in fact do so, which obviously means that they are able to accept something beyond the scope of human comprehension and Wikipedia.

 

Creationists on the other hand are in a group of their own.

 

In Northern Ireland they have opened a tourist centre at the Giant's Causeway.

A huge row developed because a number of the Protestant churches are creationists.

 

They insisted that alongside the scientific explanation the creationist version had to take equal prominence!

 

 

 

 

Bloody idiots!

 

Everyone knows it was the Irish Giant Finn McCool who built it so that he could cross to Scotland and fight a Scottish Giant.

 

Some people just can't see the truth, even when it's staring them in the face.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 20:08 ----------

 

ivanava.

 

Who exactly( other than a child ) is claiming that Santa is real?

 

Just before Christmas I took my five year old grandson to see Santa at Abbeydale Model Railway centre. During the long wait to meet him I was quizzed by the grandson as to whether or not this was the 'real' one.

 

I assured him it was.

 

Imagine my discomfort when we both turned up three days later, to find a different Santa in attendance at his school open day.

 

I was the recipient of an in depth interrogation by an extremely puzzled and annoyed five year old as to just exactly was going on.

 

My only consolation being that he will make one hell of a council for the prosecution!

 

How do you test God? Please take into consideration that as Creator of the entire Universe God would probably take as much interest in you or me as we would take in an ant we found in the kitchen.

 

It is only the various religions, with overweening arrogance, that claim that we are in some way 'special unto God'.

 

Doesn't rule out a God existing, probably rules out the old afterlife theory though.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 21:04 ----------

 

See post 754.

 

 

 

 

 

 

See post 760

 

So basically you throw in a childish insult and then repeat the same old patronising nonsense and believe that it will convince this time?

 

I wouldn't believe for one moment that introspection is in any way your thing. Having said which, I think you should probably give it a try for your own benefit.

 

On the previous thread I made a straight forward quite uncontroversial remark ( as I thought ) to the effect that I was agnostic.

 

This resulted in an ongoing onslaught by the definition pedants, with you amongst them.

 

Instead of accepting my word with perhaps a small query, you and your mates combined to insist against my personally expressed view that I was in fact not what I claimed to be.

 

It was obvious that you were PMing each other, and you have admitted that you have done it on this thread.

 

Initially I got annoyed that posters who didn't know me, were being that arrogant that they knew what I thought better than I did.

 

After a while however, it began to amuse me greatly and I began to stoke the flames of righteous indignation and affronted ego's, brought about by my refusal to go along.

 

The fun ended when a mod stepped in, just in time to save one of your number from having what sounded like an oncoming nervous breakdown.

 

That was a while back, and when this thread took the turn it did I decided to introduce the agnostic word again, to see if it met with the same reaction, and it did, Pavlov's dog.

 

Now I'm doing this because I have a certain sense of humour which I find hard to deny easy amusement to.

 

Then I've been retired for 14 years, and although I meet five different mates each week for lunch and night time pub drinks, and also look after grandkids,go on various holidays etc I still have plenty of time on my hands to get up to mischief.

 

Why do you do it?

 

That's where the introspection should come in, think about it.

 

Why do you have this pathological need to preach your views to other people?

 

That bad is this compulsion, that you feel the need to bring like minded posters in to help you out.

 

Then when it doesn't work, despite the back up, you throw the dummy out and end up looking a bit sad and pathetic.

 

For your own sake you do really need to talk to someone, this obsession can't be healthy.

 

May your God go with you.

[ivanava]

 

 

 

ivanava.

 

 

 

 

How do you test God? Please take into consideration that as Creator of the entire Universe God would probably take as much interest in you or me as we would take in an ant we found in the kitchen.

 

 

So not God then, if whatever it is that you think created the universe isn't interested in it's creation, then it wouldn't be God, it would simply be the creator and there would be no requirement to worship it.

[mjw47]

So not God then, if whatever it is that you think created the universe isn't interested in it's creation, then it wouldn't be God, it would simply be the creator and there would be no requirement to worship it.

 

If there was a creator there would be nothing 'simple' about it, and it would in fact be what our species regard as God.

 

The fact that we would have misunderstood it's intent, and that it turned out to have no more interest in us than any of it's other creations, would not in any way mean that it wouldn't be God, just not as we thought or wished it to be.

 

Tough.

 

We thought we were special, turns out we aren't. That as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles. :(

 

As for the requirement to worship it, I never did really understand that. It's God, it has created everything, including us, and it's got an ego problem?

 

Anyway, I always thought that if you lived life as honestly as you could, and admired the immensity and sheer beauty of creation as you went along, that was in fact a way of worshiping.

 

In fact it's the only reason that I can think of for a God to create humans.

 

I mean, if it were me and I'd created something like the stars and the milky way, I'd want someone to look at it all in awe and go 'wow'.

[Lockjaw]

Not really, Theists are prepared to believe in God and in fact do so, which obviously means that they are able to accept something beyond the scope of human comprehension and Wikipedia.

 

Creationists on the other hand are in a group of their own.

 

In Northern Ireland they have opened a tourist centre at the Giant's Causeway.

A huge row developed because a number of the Protestant churches are creationists.

 

They insisted that alongside the scientific explanation the creationist version had to take equal prominence!

 

 

 

 

Bloody idiots!

 

Everyone knows it was the Irish Giant Finn McCool who built it so that he could cross to Scotland and fight a Scottish Giant.

 

Some people just can't see the truth, even when it's staring them in the face.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 20:08 ----------

 

ivanava.

 

Who exactly( other than a child ) is claiming that Santa is real?

 

Just before Christmas I took my five year old grandson to see Santa at Abbeydale Model Railway centre. During the long wait to meet him I was quizzed by the grandson as to whether or not this was the 'real' one.

 

I assured him it was.

 

Imagine my discomfort when we both turned up three days later, to find a different Santa in attendance at his school open day.

 

I was the recipient of an in depth interrogation by an extremely puzzled and annoyed five year old as to just exactly was going on.

 

My only consolation being that he will make one hell of a council for the prosecution!

 

How do you test God? Please take into consideration that as Creator of the entire Universe God would probably take as much interest in you or me as we would take in an ant we found in the kitchen.

 

It is only the various religions, with overweening arrogance, that claim that we are in some way 'special unto God'.

 

Doesn't rule out a God existing, probably rules out the old afterlife theory though.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 21:04 ----------

 

 

So basically you throw in a childish insult and then repeat the same old patronising nonsense and believe that it will convince this time?

 

I wouldn't believe for one moment that introspection is in any way your thing. Having said which, I think you should probably give it a try for your own benefit.

 

On the previous thread I made a straight forward quite uncontroversial remark ( as I thought ) to the effect that I was agnostic.

 

This resulted in an ongoing onslaught by the definition pedants, with you amongst them.

 

Instead of accepting my word with perhaps a small query, you and your mates combined to insist against my personally expressed view that I was in fact not what I claimed to be.

 

It was obvious that you were PMing each other, and you have admitted that you have done it on this thread.

 

Initially I got annoyed that posters who didn't know me, were being that arrogant that they knew what I thought better than I did.

 

After a while however, it began to amuse me greatly and I began to stoke the flames of righteous indignation and affronted ego's, brought about by my refusal to go along.

 

The fun ended when a mod stepped in, just in time to save one of your number from having what sounded like an oncoming nervous breakdown.

 

That was a while back, and when this thread took the turn it did I decided to introduce the agnostic word again, to see if it met with the same reaction, and it did, Pavlov's dog.

 

Now I'm doing this because I have a certain sense of humour which I find hard to deny easy amusement to.

 

Then I've been retired for 14 years, and although I meet five different mates each week for lunch and night time pub drinks, and also look after grandkids,go on various holidays etc I still have plenty of time on my hands to get up to mischief.

 

Why do you do it?

 

That's where the introspection should come in, think about it.

 

Why do you have this pathological need to preach your views to other people?

 

That bad is this compulsion, that you feel the need to bring like minded posters in to help you out.

 

Then when it doesn't work, despite the back up, you throw the dummy out and end up looking a bit sad and pathetic.

 

For your own sake you do really need to talk to someone, this obsession can't be healthy.

 

May your God go with you.

 

See post 754.

[Ryedo40]

Not really, Theists are prepared to believe in God and in fact do so, which obviously means that they are able to accept something beyond the scope of human comprehension and Wikipedia.

 

If something that exists is beyond human comprehension, you wouldn't be capable of perceiving it(it would not be detectable through our senses.)

 

It would mean theists:

 

1) aren't human

or

2) are delusion

or

3) god is not beyond human comprehension

 

Theists are human, so that rules 1 out. This leaves & 3. So they are either delusional or god is not beyond human comprehension.

 

Who exactly( other than a child ) is claiming that Santa is real?

 

Just before Christmas I took my five year old grandson to see Santa at Abbeydale Model Railway centre. During the long wait to meet him I was quizzed by the grandson as to whether or not this was the 'real' one.

 

I assured him it was.

 

Adults. Unless you are saying you are six years old:hihi:

 

Also, you being agnostic and all, how do you know Santa doesn't exist?

Edited March 6, 2014 by Ryedo40

[ivanava]

If there was a creator there would be nothing 'simple' about it, and it would in fact be what our species regard as God.

 

The fact that we would have misunderstood it's intent, and that it turned out to have no more interest in us than any of it's other creations, would not in any way mean that it wouldn't be God, just not as we thought or wished it to be.

 

Tough.

 

We thought we were special, turns out we aren't. That as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles. :(

 

As for the requirement to worship it, I never did really understand that. It's God, it has created everything, including us, and it's got an ego problem?

 

Anyway, I always thought that if you lived life as honestly as you could, and admired the immensity and sheer beauty of creation as you went along, that was in fact a way of worshiping.

 

In fact it's the only reason that I can think of for a God to create humans.

 

I mean, if it were me and I'd created something like the stars and the milky way, I'd want someone to look at it all in awe and go 'wow'.

 

Its looking more and more like you define God as something that as more power than us, so in your world we are also Gods because we have more power than ants. Some members of our species may regard it as God, but many wouldn't, I would just see it an incredibly powerful entity.

[Cyclone]

Only with regard to religion or lack thereof.

 

Yes all opinions are beliefs.

 

I have no idea or interest as to whether you can prove a negative or not. What I do know, is that it is the usual retort that atheists come out with when challenged to prove there is no God.

So you have no interested in structured reasoning or logic. Yet you claim to have reasoned your way to a particular opinion.

 

I'd suggest that you educate yourself a little bit more on the subject. It won't be difficult, reflect on the difficulty of proving that something doesn't exist. How can you have evidence of that?

 

This does not however remove from them the burden of proof to back up their claim.

Basically it does because it reverses it. Nobody is agnostic with regards to goblins and demands proof that they don't exist, god is the same.

 

This makes them believers like the rest of us whether they like it or not.

Clearly not. You're just being silly now.

 

Please explain how proving a negative effects agnosticism?

You can't prove a negative and agnosticism is an illogical opinion to hold.

 

We don't know, because we cannot prove it, that a God(s) exists.

Of course we can't.

 

We also don't know, because we cannot prove it, that God(s) do not exist.

You can't prove negatives. Basic axioms of logic. Perhaps this is why you erroneously reached the agnostic conclusion.

 

Thank you for at least accepting that you can't be both.

 

Do I believe in gravity? Well I find that if I drop something it falls toward the ground and it has been explained to me that gravity is the reason, so that would be a yes.

Good, so you can both know something and believe in it.

 

As to Santa, who exactly above the age of six is claiming that Santa exists?

Santa is a made up character to entertain children at Christmas, so no not since about 1953.

 

Okay, no provide me with proof that he doesn't exist. Since you think the burden is on the atheists, the same burden is on you as the non believer in Santa.

[redwhine]

Agnosticism and atheism are differing beliefs. You cannot be both at the same time, no more than you can be a atheist theist.

Te 'a' in atheism means 'without'. Theism is a belief; a belief in god/gods/God. Therefore atheism is the state of being without belief in god/gods/God. Being without x =/= believing x does not exist. Therefore atheism is not a belief.