Ryedo40 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) I'm trying to relate that to my own experience. It's difficult, because on the one hand, I find reason and logic can bring a sense of clarity, which in my book is a very good thing. Peace of mind, perhaps; certainly clarity is preferable to muddy thinking, with regards to cultivating peace of mind. However, there is still thought involved, and I wouldn't associate a noisy (thinking) mind with 'peace of mind'. I'd be more thinking, a quiet settled mind equates to 'peace of mind' (and peace of whole being). From my own experience, when I'm trying to understand something - using reason, logic, etc - I have a noisy mind(I'm trying to compute). This causes a degree of mental stress. And in most cases it's a stress that I crave - I enjoy the mental stimulation(I'm not miserable). When I've figured out what I'm trying to compute - that stress goes: giving me 'peace of mind' and a 'sense of joy'(something to do with the chemicals released in the brain.) Sometimes, I may crave peace & quiet. In all cases, when I'm not getting what I crave I'm not getting what I need. That's where things can become miserable. Edit: We are biological organisms, not mechanical robots. So I just can't really agree with you that a world based on rationality and reason would be joyless or miserable. It would have some misery in it, but I'm sure someone would get a buzz trying solve that problem. Edited March 11, 2014 by Ryedo40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Aren't they? OED Atheist : some one who believes that God does not exist. : 'a' = without + theist = God OED Agnostic : A person who believes that one cannot know whether or not God exists. : 'a' =without + gnostic = knowledge I don't know what version of the OED you're reading but the one I've got right here in front of me does not say what you claim it does. Atheist 1. One who denies or disbelieves in the existence of a god. 2. One who practically denies the existence of a god by disregard of moral obligation to him; a godless man. There is no third definition. Are you lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I don't know what version of the OED you're reading but the one I've got right here in front of me does not say what you claim it does. Atheist 1. One who denies or disbelieves in the existence of a god. 2. One who practically denies the existence of a god by disregard of moral obligation to him; a godless man. There is no third definition. Are you lying? I don't lie pal OK? My version is the ninth edition edited by Catherine Soanes and printed in 2001. It is a concise edition which means that they don't provide numerious variations on a theme. What they do instead, is decide which definition is the most pertinent, which sums up the essence of the word most accurately and print that. Their choice was Atheism : The belief that God does not exist. Compare it with what you have written above and explain the significant difference in meaning. And do me a favour and don't call me a liar again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I don't lie pal OK? My version is the ninth edition edited by Catherine Soanes and printed in 2001. It is a concise edition which means that they don't provide numerious variations on a theme. What they do instead, is decide which definition is the most pertinent, which sums up the essence of the word most accurately and print that. Their choice was Atheism : The belief that God does not exist. Compare it with what you have written above and explain the significant difference in meaning. And do me a favour and don't call me a liar again. Is it time to agree that the different definitions published in the variety of dictionaries is the confusing factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Is it time to agree that the different definitions published in the variety of dictionaries is the confusing factor? It might be, except that the definition quoted by flamingjimmy does not contradict my OED definition in anyway. It simply says the same thing differently. The compilers need to justify their salaries you know, they can't just copy the previous edition. To deny or disbelieve in the existence of God, is the same as holding the belief that God does not exist, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It might be, except that the definition quoted by flamingjimmy does not contradict my OED definition in anyway. It simply says the same thing differently. The compilers need to justify their salaries you know, they can't just copy the previous edition. To deny or disbelieve in the existence of God, is the same as holding the belief that God does not exist, isn't it? Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real. Disbelieving that God exists isn't the same as believing that God doesn't exist. One can be unable to accept that God is real, without believing that God doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real. Disbelieving that God exists isn't the same as believing that God doesn't exist. One can be unable to accept that God is real, without believing that God doesn't exist. EH? Don't know about you, but if I do not think that something is true then by the same token I believe it is not true. To disbelieve means that you are unable to believe. Therefore, to say that as a result you believe that God does not exist makes perfect sense. I think you are over complicating matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryedo40 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It might be, except that the definition quoted by flamingjimmy does not contradict my OED definition in anyway. It simply says the same thing differently. The compilers need to justify their salaries you know, they can't just copy the previous edition. To deny or disbelieve in the existence of God, is the same as holding the belief that God does not exist, isn't it? The word deny, in this case, implies the existence of an actual god has been established as fact or true; and atheists are refusing to admit that. IMO, you can't deny something when that something hasn't been established as true/existing in the first place. Deny is the wrong word to use. Disbelieving the claims that God exists doesn't mean an actual God doesn't exist. I could disbelieve you have won the lottery - it doesn't mean I believe the lottery doesn't exist. Atheism is the absence of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) EH? Don't know about you, but if I do not think that something is true then by the same token I believe it is not true. To disbelieve means that you are unable to believe. Therefore, to say that as a result you believe that God does not exist makes perfect sense. I think you are over complicating matters. If you claimed to be sat in front of your computer with a condom on your head, I would find it difficult to believe that its true, but I also wouldn't automatically believe it was untrue. It may or may not be true but for now I don't have any evidence to either support or deny that claim. So for now I simply lack a belief that it is true or false. If you claimed to be sat with an 2 ton elephant on your head I could then claim that it is untrue, on the grounds that it is extremely unlikely if not impossible. Edited March 11, 2014 by ivanava Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The word deny, in this case, implies the existence of an actual god has been established as fact or true; and atheists are refusing to admit that. IMO, you can't deny something when that something hasn't been established as true/existing in the first place. Deny is the wrong word to use. Disbelieving the claims that God exists doesn't mean an actual God doesn't exist. I could disbelieve you have won the lottery - it doesn't mean I believe the lottery doesn't exist. Atheism is the absence of belief. In which case you need to get in touch with the editors of a few dictionaries and take up the matter with them. Because the OED as I stated many times on here defines atheism as 'someone who believes that God does not exist.' Websters dictionary 'an atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.' Collins dictionary ' a person who does not believe in God or gods'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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