Anna B Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The power of suggestion is immense. They could have read about it in a magazine and transferred the experience to themselves. It is a recognised psychological phenomenon, I understand. Interestingly there is no reference to it in literature before about 1850. Actually references to near death experiences (NDEs) go back as far as Plato and have been consistently reported throughout time, across all religions, and all over the world. They all contain the same elements, (they have to, to be considered a statistically significant NDE) and have been experienced by 17% of those coming close to death, most commonly following a heart attack. They are now the subject of serious ongoing scientific research. I suggest people read 'The wisdom of Near Death Experiences' by Dr Penny Sartori who has completed an 8 year study into them. And there are plenty of other scientific studies out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 Overwhelming scientific evidence, negating zero evidence of creationism. A scientist would not say "did not". That would categorise them the same as theists with the line "God exists". If I told you last night that I saw in my dreams that 15 pixies danced on the head of a pin then suggested it has some validation outside of a dream, what would be your reply? Science does not look to debunk creationism, that being the case science would stagnate and move forward at a snails pace, if at all. I've lost count of the Times I've read posts were the poster has used scientific theories about the creation of the universe, for what seems to be to simply discredit the creationists position, claiming, if God can exist without having had a creator, then the universe can also,therefore, the universe must have either always existed, or, popped into existence from nothing. This scientific theory of the creation of the universe is often put forward in creationism debates despite it being no more plausible than the creationists position. So why use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 If anyone believes it is better to die, than to live; which the OP puts unarguably, then I must question what they are doing here, alive. Unless, deep down, they don't really believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I've lost count of the Times I've read posts were the poster has used scientific theories about the creation of the universe, What posters say and what scientists conclude are two entirely different things, with the same conclusion. Science concludes evolution through evidence, posters support is based on that. Theists on the other hand have nothing but tales or manuscript. Tales and manuscripts exist, but only in that form. what seems to be to simply discredit the creationists position Not so, science and evidence discredit by default not by intent..posters are simply a conduit of the default, they don't need an intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buck Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 On the other hand, it could just have been a dream//delirium/delusion and not real at all.I made no other claim, read it properly. I made no other mention of an afterlife. I just don't know, but it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I made no other claim, read it properly. I made no other mention of an afterlife. I just don't know, but it happened. Yes, but you do frequently use "sentimentality" to reinforce something now you "just don't know" Example 1: I lay under the stars gazing with content with my partner when suddenly before my eyes I seen a vision of what I can only describe as clouds forming into a Jesus like apparition. Example 2: I lay under the stars gazing with content when suddenly before my eyes I seen a vision of what I can only describe as clouds forming into a Jesus like apparition. I tried to wake my partner laying next to me but found that at that moment she had died. For those unable to contemplate coincidence (which seems to have already been proven) one of the examples could be seen as manipulating two things as one..."Jesus clouds and death as synonymous". Sentimentality through story telling is a very influential tool...it's used on this forum Ad infinitum...as well as the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 , What posters say and what scientists conclude are two entirely different things, with the same conclusion. Science concludes evolution through evidence, posters support is based on that. Theists on the other hand have nothing but tales or manuscript. Tales and manuscripts exist, but only in that form. Not so, science and evidence discredit by default not by intent..posters are simply a conduit of the default, they don't need an intent. But there is no evidence that can support their conclusions of the universe popping into existence from nothing or that it must have always existed, none... Zilch!! it's simply a conclusion that lacks credible evidene because it's all based on logical reasoning. Which begs the question- 'why apply logic to something that is effectively: illogical, at all? Where's the sense in that'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buck Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 So, the debate is about a lack of or the total lack of knowledge about a premise without any evidence? If knowledge isn't a requirement what mental tool do you suggest to move the debate further on? ---------- Post added 03-03-2014 at 02:45 ---------- How do you know you had this "experience" in the 5 mins you had a cardiac arrest? I don't know. I was clearly unconscious for a lot longer than 5 minutes. Like I said elsewhere, there was no claim of an afterlife in my posts. It could have been delusion as another poster suggested. But at least it gave me comfort at a time when I needed it most, real or not. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who had a similar experience, and whether it made them believe or not. ---------- Post added 03-03-2014 at 11:10 ---------- Yes, but you do frequently use "sentimentality" to reinforce something now you "just don't know" Example 1: I lay under the stars gazing with content with my partner when suddenly before my eyes I seen a vision of what I can only describe as clouds forming into a Jesus like apparition. Example 2: I lay under the stars gazing with content when suddenly before my eyes I seen a vision of what I can only describe as clouds forming into a Jesus like apparition. I tried to wake my partner laying next to me but found that at that moment she had died. For those unable to contemplate coincidence (which seems to have already been proven) one of the examples could be seen as manipulating two things as one..."Jesus clouds and death as synonymous". Sentimentality through story telling is a very influential tool...it's used on this forum Ad infinitum...as well as the Bible. I didn't seen a vision of clouds or anything, I SAW a vision of two women I loved, sometime during a long operation that included a cardiac arrest. No sentimentality involved, just a simple statement That truly happened. If it created a debate that's good, but let's leave the sky pixies out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barleycorn Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I remember being born. Spent the rest of my life trying to get back in. I hope that's a desire not reciprocated by your mother. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I don't know. I was clearly unconscious for a lot longer than 5 minutes. Like I said elsewhere, there was no claim of an afterlife in my posts. It could have been delusion as another poster suggested. But at least it gave me comfort at a time when I needed it most, real or not. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who had a similar experience, and whether it made them believe or not. Read the book I mentioned. You will find that what you experienced is shared by many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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