SnailyBoy Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 What about the cases of people who've had experiences of watching the operation from a vantage point & relaying back conversations between the surgeon & nurses, also studies have placed objects at high level that the patient could never have known existed & these have been recounted when the patient regained consciousness. Do you have links to the research papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 And do you think that the brain is not capable of producing such things? Studies have also found that people have different, mutually exclusive delusions. There are some commonalities but that's to be expected if its the same process occuring in their brains. Find me a Christian who has a near death experience where they see a Hindu god. Or find me a Hindu who has a near death experience where they see Jesus. Nope, people see things from their own culture, or their own lives. How can you explain that? ---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 16:39 ---------- But it isn't the same process, which is why I said about different brains in different circumstances and involving different chemicals. The brain at the time of death is often in a chaotic state. The fact that it can create visions of any sort is remarkable. 'A being of Light' covers all denominations, why the obsession with Hindus? I wouldn't find it particularly extraordinary that that might take the form of whatever the dying person finds most comforting, although according to some reportees the 'Being' is difficult to describe in earthly terms. You might like to address crazybaby's points too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybaby Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Do you have links to the research papers? Sorry I just can't find related papers, but I do know that these were carried out, maybe I've read it in one of the many books I've read trying to find out just what happened to me, one of them being by Dr. Melvin Morse, M.D., who is an Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington. He has studied near-death experiences in children for 15 years and is the author of several outstanding books on the subject He and his colleagues at Seattle Children's Hospital designed and implemented the first prospective study of NDEs, with age and sex matched controls. He studied 26 children who nearly died. He compared them to 131 children who were also quite ill, in the intensive care unit, mechanically ventilated, treated with drugs such as morphine, valium and anesthetic agents, and often had a lack of oxygen to the brain, BUT, they were not near-death. He found that 23/26 children who nearly died had NDEs whereas none of the other children had them. If NDEs are caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain, drugs, hallucinations secondary to coma, or stress and the fear of dying, then the control would have been expected to also have NDEs. They did not, indicating that NDEs happen to the dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 And do you think that the brain is not capable of producing such things? Studies have also found that people have different, mutually exclusive delusions. There are some commonalities but that's to be expected if its the same process occurring in their brains. Find me a Christian who has a near death experience where they see a Hindu god. Or find me a Hindu who has a near death experience where they see Jesus. Nope, people see things from their own culture, or their own lives. How can you explain that? It's also worth noting that if these individuals who worship differing Gods connect in some way when "dead" with their gods then that would suggest that there really is more than one God. As well as the differing Gods they head towards in this "flux" time, no one seems to have reported they've headed towards Black (devil) doing that would be an admission they're "evil". Although we know some people are I've never heard it admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 It's also worth noting that if these individuals who worship differing Gods connect in some way when "dead" with their gods then that would suggest that there really is more than one God. As well as the differing Gods they head towards in this "flux" time, no one seems to have reported they've headed towards Black (devil) doing that would be an admission they're "evil". Although we know some people are I've never heard it admitted. Actually, they have: "Distressing accounts were investigated by British researcher Dr Margot Grey. Based on a study of 50 accounts of distressing NDEs she catagorized the distressing experience as: Fear and feeling of panic Out of body experience Entering a black void Sensing an evil presence Entering a hell-like environment Also 'void' experiences where the person believes themselves to be in a dark perpetual 'nothingness." (from 'The near death experience' by Dr Penny Sartori.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 But it isn't the same process, which is why I said about different brains in different circumstances and involving different chemicals. The brain at the time of death is often in a chaotic state. The fact that it can create visions of any sort is remarkable. 'A being of Light' covers all denominations, why the obsession with Hindus? I wouldn't find it particularly extraordinary that that might take the form of whatever the dying person finds most comforting, although according to some reportees the 'Being' is difficult to describe in earthly terms. I have no obsession with Hindus, I just had to ask twice because you didn't answer the first time. That's a pretty weak answer in my opinion, there are people who report vividly seeing Jesus, or the Hindu god of death or whatever. You seem to be happy to accept that they didn't really see these things, and that's just how their brain chose to interpret the 'being of light', why can you not go one step further and accept that the 'being of light' itself is also probably just the brain trying to interpret what's going on when we're close to death? ---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 18:33 ---------- Sorry I just can't find related papers, but I do know that these were carried out, maybe I've read it in one of the many books I've read trying to find out just what happened to me, one of them being by Dr. Melvin Morse, M.D., who is an Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington. He has studied near-death experiences in children for 15 years and is the author of several outstanding books on the subject I'm sorry I can't seem to find a source for that totally scientific sounding study you quoted other than the author's own website. Could you help me out with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I have no obsession with Hindus, I just had to ask twice because you didn't answer the first time. That's a pretty weak answer in my opinion, there are people who report vividly seeing Jesus, or the Hindu god of death or whatever. You seem to be happy to accept that they didn't really see these things, and that's just how their brain chose to interpret the 'being of light', why can you not go one step further and accept that the 'being of light' itself is also probably just the brain trying to interpret what's going on when we're close to death? ---------- Post added 05-03-2014 at 18:33 ---------- Same book as before: Page 70. Chapter 4 'The cultural variations of near death experience.' Indian NDE - "In 1977 the first cross cultural study of Indian and American deathbed visions was undertaken...... The Indians reported seeing religious figures of the Hindu culture...." I'm not going to copy the entire chapter, but does that answer your questions or just create more? She goes on to cross reference 15 different cultures across the globe. There are some cultural differences, but what is more surprising are the many similarities consistent with all cultures. She also discusses the difficulties people had finding the words to describe what had happened to them so it is not surprising they resort to their own religious cultural language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsafan Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I actually have this book. The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying - Sogyal Rinpoche. For me, I have seen my grandparents past away, so I know that it is almost quite natural in some respect. I came to find emotional attachment later on in life, and then I also realised what this "anxiety" and this "fear" business is all about too. When I read some of the threads on here about people fearing to die, I can indeed relate to it. But I also came to realise now that we can and do have a choice to train ourselves in our living time to handle death and also to handle the next life. I don't think I have emphasized that much on how to deal with sowing karma in my current life, but I knew and realised what karmic life I inherited. To me, I do not fear death even though when sometimes the experiences I gain in life feels awful and it feels painful. I know that it is not because I will die. Although according to the book, it is a form of suffering. Body and emotional pain. Your spirit will be more free if you separate it from the emotion. Your suffering will mean less, if you separate your emotion and your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Actually, they have: "Distressing accounts were investigated by British researcher Dr Margot Grey. Based on a study of 50 accounts of distressing NDEs she catagorized the distressing experience as: Fear and feeling of panic Out of body experience Entering a black void Sensing an evil presence Entering a hell-like environment Also 'void' experiences where the person believes themselves to be in a dark perpetual 'nothingness." (from 'The near death experience' by Dr Penny Sartori.) All of those distressing experiences can be explained through psychoanalysing and mostly quite common. One suggestion would be coping. Why is it beyond comprehension that while in a state of flux..unconscious/near death, the same coping strategies for differing reasons can't come into effect. Why can't these psychological strategies be similar, concious or not..it's far more credible than Jesus or your dead mother at the end of a tunnel isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 All of those distressing experiences can be explained through psychoanalysing and mostly quite common. One suggestion would be coping. Why is it beyond comprehension that while in a state of flux..unconscious/near death, the same coping strategies for differing reasons can't come into effect. Why can't these psychological strategies be similar, concious or not..it's far more credible than Jesus or your dead mother at the end of a tunnel isn't it? Might be more logical, but that's not what they say happens. They all swear they saw dead relatives. But what is also interesting, is the beneficial result it has on their subsequent lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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