Obelix Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I did not say what you have distorted my words to say. I will agree that, culturally, some parts of Islam are very backward, like the Taleban, and the Wahabists, but when you look at the rights given to women, in Islam, rather than the culture, you will see a different story. Under Islam, women, as well as men are obligated to acquire an education. Women are allowed to inherit, to run business, and to own property, and even to refuse a potential marriage partner if he displeases her. The husband has an obligation to give the wife pleasure/ satisfaction in lovemaking. Women also have their obligations, to pay their charity and when they are able, to make their prayers, and to keep the fast at ramadan. Women are also obligated, (providing they meet the criteria on all Muslims, {that they are:- Muslim, that they are an adult, sane and are in good enough health, financially and physically})to carry out the Hajj pilgrimage, at least once, in their lifetime. The Islamic saying, "Paradise is found at the feet of the mother" is a clear example that women should be treated with respect and not abused, and that women should hold a position of honour. As you say, women are repressed and abused, but we need to recognise and address this fact, that it happens, across the world, in all societies, and at all levels within society. We have a remedy for this. The remedy for this is to educate women. To prevent marriage and childbirth from happening too young. To show girls and boys that there is more to life than drudgery. Thank you for a voice of reason and sanity which is sadly lackin on here at times when the I-word gets mentioned.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire_ Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I did not say what you have distorted my words to say. I will agree that, culturally, some parts of Islam are very backward, like the Taleban, and the Wahabists, but when you look at the rights given to women, in Islam, rather than the culture, you will see a different story. Under Islam, women, as well as men are obligated to acquire an education. Women are allowed to inherit, to run business, and to own property, and even to refuse a potential marriage partner if he displeases her. The husband has an obligation to give the wife pleasure/ satisfaction in lovemaking. Women also have their obligations, to pay their charity and when they are able, to make their prayers, and to keep the fast at ramadan. Women are also obligated, (providing they meet the criteria on all Muslims, {that they are:- Muslim, that they are an adult, sane and are in good enough health, financially and physically})to carry out the Hajj pilgrimage, at least once, in their lifetime. The Islamic saying, "Paradise is found at the feet of the mother" is a clear example that women should be treated with respect and not abused, and that women should hold a position of honour. As you say, women are repressed and abused, but we need to recognise and address this fact, that it happens, across the world, in all societies, and at all levels within society. We have a remedy for this. The remedy for this is to educate women. To prevent marriage and childbirth from happening too young. To show girls and boys that there is more to life than drudgery. Bold Red. Allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob England Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I agree with you on two of your points. Islam does denigrate women, as do all the Abrahamic religions. It is no coincidence that the two States in the world that allow men and not woman to vote are The Vatican and Saudi Arabia. Interestingly, as of 2015, women will be able to vote in Saudi, no plans to mirror this in the Vatican. I also agree with you regarding Alcohol. Those who believe alcohol to be Haram are lacking in their scriptual knowledge. The only thing that is Haram is going to prayers whilst drunk. Both Qu'ranic verses and various Haddiths explicitly state that Muhammed drank alcohol. However, I do disagree with your interpretation of Islamic history. It was very common practice for Muslim invaders to allow the indigenous population to continue to practice their own religious beliefs on the condition that they paid a higher tax rate called Jizya and landowners were made to pay Kharaj. Peaceful co-existence occured for centuries, especially in Islamic Spain and the Byzantine/Ottoman Empire. Conversely, when Christian's took over countries they wiped out entire races (Spain in Latin America, us and the French in Africa, the Crusades etc) and enforced conversion under the threat of death. Consider the most prominent political and religious movements of the last 2000 odd years; Christianity, Islam, Capitalism, Communism, Atheism. Of these, it is historical fact (as far as records show), that Islam is responsible for the least deaths of these movements or ways of life. The only thing wrong with Islam is that it is practiced by Humans. It is they who are vile, aggressive and dangerous, not the religion. Your comments are interesting and as far as I can ascertain correct. They are however based on history. My perspective is different, I am attempting to convey my feelings as I see them now, in 2014. Before I extend the argument I also need to take a historical perspective but only back to the 20th century. The Muslim world has had huge turmoil since, I suppose, the end of the first world war, the end of the Ottoman Empire brought in secularism as espoused by Ataturk which seemed to indicate the division of religion and state, this had a great degree of success, was interrupted by the second world war and then brought forward by Nasser. What never took hold was a form of democracy as recognized by us in the west. Instead it created some pretty unpleasant dictatorships, The Shah, Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi etc. It seems that the fundamental basis of Islam (surrender) also extends to surrender to dictatorship, that democracy is not a natural aspiration of a populace used to believing in submission and fate. This leads to low aspiration, low achievement, a failure to recognize the talents and possible contributions of 50% of the population (women) and the subsequent stasis of the society. Film. TV, the media generally are accessed in these countries, they see the progress in material things the west has achieved and react either to copy or to envy. When the reaction is one of envy it is frequently expressed as seeing us as evil "The Great Satan". In seeing the freedom enjoyed by women only in negative terms "they are immoral, they drink". In other words Islam, by its very nature seeks to bring the west down to a level that it can deal with. Its adherents do this by taking a fundamental, intolerant attitude and seek to undermine our society, as is evidenced in this Birmingham story. Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but its a two way process, as long as the fundamentalists of Islam and its apologists are intolerant and subversive we must be aware and resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire_ Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Yes they will. They just won't get them at school dinners. Thats right they can have it at home. Do you think its fair its been banned (if it has, i dont know personally) from the school menu though?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchresearch Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Supply and demand? If there's little demand and a lot of waste it makes sense to drop it. Sadly, when religion is concerned that's when it becomes a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Thats right they can have it at home. Do you think its fair its been banned (if it has, i dont know personally) from the school menu though?? That's a good point Claire, I can't find any reference to pork products being banned in this school, but lots of sensational references to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanava Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 That's a good point Claire, I can't find any reference to pork products being banned in this school, but lots of sensational references to it. You clearly didn't look very hard. Sausages, ham and other pork products have been banned at Brinsworth Manor Infant and Junior Schools in Rotherham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidley Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 That's a good point Claire, I can't find any reference to pork products being banned in this school, but lots of sensational references to it. this school has banned all pork products from the school menu, its all over the media. 10 seconds to find http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/uk-school-bans-all-pork-products-from-menu-replaces-them-with-halal-meat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You clearly didn't look very hard. Sausages, ham and other pork products have been banned at Brinsworth Manor Infant and Junior Schools in Rotherham You clearly didn't look very hard at my post. As I said all I can find are sensational references to it. The Mail article you linked to (which I'd seen already) quotes only two official statements. One from the principal stating there will be 'minor adjustments' to the menu and another from a council spokesperson saying this A spokesman for Rotherham Borough Council confirmed that school meals at both Brinsworth Manor schools have changed and now include halal and non-halal meat on the menu. She added that the Schools Catering Service supplies about 17,000 school meals every day to children at infant, junior, primary and secondary schools in Rotherham. She said: 'The provision of both halal and non-halal is not unusual in Rotherham's school. Currently, nine schools out of 115, select one of our menus that provide a mix of both halal and non-halal meals. 'All meat on our menus, including halal, is sourced from reputable companies, which fully comply with the quality standards of the relevant individual meat boards. 'The meals are also nutritionally balanced and cooked fresh on-site every day using locally sourced meat, fruit, vegetables and dairy products where possible. 'Our menus are designed to meet both national nutritional standards and dietary requirements so that all the children of Rotherham benefit.' There's no mention of banning sausages or pork, only a statement saying they'll be providing both halal and non halal meat on the menu. The only reference to banning anything is being made by some of the parents. I've no idea whether they're banning pork or not, but as of yet I've seen no official statement confirming it. Incidentally, if you have a look at the Brinsworth Juniors twitter account, you'll see the parents are prone to gossip and erroneous speculation jill burkinshaw @jillngary Feb 20 @bmajsch I have heard you are stopping parents from entering the school grounds what is the reasoning behind this Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand bmaj @bmajsch Feb 21 @jillngary Hi, this isn't something we're aware of. Would be interested where the information came from - please contact office. Hide conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More 1:22 AM - 21 Feb 2014 · Details jill burkinshaw @jillngary Feb 21 @bmajsch from a friend of mine. Who is so upset she is considering transfer to a different school ---------- Post added 10-03-2014 at 11:45 ---------- this school has banned all pork products from the school menu, its all over the media. 10 seconds to find http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/uk-school-bans-all-pork-products-from-menu-replaces-them-with-halal-meat Really? The jihadwatch website (wonder what balanced perspective theyre coming from), merely quotes the Daily Mail article I'd already seen, which contains no school/council statement confirming a ban on pork in this school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidley Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You clearly didn't look very hard at my post. As I said all I can find are sensational references to it. The Mail article you linked to (which I'd seen already) quotes only two official statements. One from the principal stating there will be 'minor adjustments' to the menu and another from a council spokesperson saying this There's no mention of banning sausages or pork, only a statement saying they'll be providing both halal and non halal meat on the menu. The only reference to banning anything is being made by some of the parents. I've no idea whether they're banning pork or not, but as of yet I've seen no official statement confirming it. Incidentally, if you have a look at the Brinsworth Juniors twitter account, you'll see the parents are prone to gossip and erroneous speculation ---------- Post added 10-03-2014 at 11:45 ---------- Really? The jihadwatch website (wonder what balanced perspective theyre coming from), merely quotes the Daily Mail article I'd already seen, which contains no school/council statement confirming a ban on pork in this school. There was a councilor on the radio this morning, he said it was not a council decision it was the school governors and the head teachers decision to ban pork on the menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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