First prosecutions for Female Genital Mutilation

[Plain Talker]

Muslim men must have acquired the skill of silent, heavy sleeping

 

hehehehe... You think? (chortle)

[Bubble3082]

I remember seeing a documentary about FGM about 6 years ago, and it is truly the worst thing I have ever seen. They showed a young girl, about 7 or 8 having the procedure done by a village woman with a dirty razor blade. They had to pin her down and her screams and cries were horrific. Her mother, who was helping to hold her, said she should stop crying and basically be grateful for this being done as she wouldn't find a husband otherwise. To make it worse, they made her younger sister, who was due to have it done straight after, sit in the corner and watch. Afterwards, both girls (who had their legs bound together to stop bleeding, seemed quite proud to have had it done, which I found heartbreaking. This was in an African country, if I remember correctly, so you could argue its lack of education that's the problem. But how much education do you need to know that seeing your daughter in absolute agony is not right?

[rodnreeluk]

Two things confuse me:

(1) Why has it taken all these years since FGM was made illegal to actually have a prosecution?

(2) Are they going for the "soft" target - ie: a doctor?

It is my understanding that most female circumcision is carried out by imams or other islamic religious leaders. How come no prosecutions of them to date?

[Plain Talker]

Two things confuse me:

(1) Why has it taken all these years since FGM was made illegal to actually have a prosecution?

(2) Are they going for the "soft" target - ie: a doctor?

It is my understanding that most female circumcision is carried out by imams or other islamic religious leaders. How come no prosecutions of them to date?

 

*horrified face* if it were an imam, that did this, then that would be another thing that would go completely against the laws of Islam.

 

For a female, the "Awrah" (area of the body to be considered private to a non-related male) is at the very least from navel to knee, some say it's from the neck to knee, (boys, certainly the minimum of their body parts that must be covered are navel to knee) so quite what the hell an unrelated male, never mind one in "authority" as an Imam is, would be doing, seeing the child's awrah, let alone (ANYONE) approaching the awrah area, to mutilate a child in such a way astounds and horrifies me.

 

it is my understanding of this awful practice, that what happens is that the parents are "persuaded" to make their daughter(s) undergo this mutilation, by the older tribeswomen in the community, who also carry this mutilation out with unsterilised and often rusty instruments. (the horrific thing being that, usually, these women committing these crimes against the children were also victims of this horrible, horrible practice, years before, back in their turn)

[rodnreeluk]

*horrified face* if it were an imam, that did this, then that would be another thing that would go completely against the laws of Islam.

 

it is my understanding of this awful practice, that what happens is that the parents are "persuaded" to make their daughter(s) undergo this mutilation, by the older tribeswomen in the community, who also carry this mutilation out with unsterilised and often rusty instruments. (the horrific thing being that, usually, these women committing these crimes against the children were also victims of this horrible, horrible practice, years before, back in their turn)

Many thanks for the explanation - appreciated. I was a little dubious when making the post but thought the only way to find out is to ask. I don't remember exactly why I believed the practice was performed by religious leaders - probably from the TV, but honestly believed it. I also believe the same applies to male circumcision - is this correct?

 

Edit: After posting the above I decided to google the subject. The perpetrators of FGM are described as "a traditional circumciser". The practice is classed as cultural and no reference is made to religion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

Edited March 22, 2014 by rodnreeluk

[ivanava]

*horrified face* if it were an imam, that did this, then that would be another thing that would go completely against the laws of Islam.

 

For a female, the "Awrah" (area of the body to be considered private to a non-related male) is at the very least from navel to knee, some say it's from the neck to knee, (boys, certainly the minimum of their body parts that must be covered are navel to knee) so quite what the hell an unrelated male, never mind one in "authority" as an Imam is, would be doing, seeing the child's awrah, let alone (ANYONE) approaching the awrah area, to mutilate a child in such a way astounds and horrifies me.

 

it is my understanding of this awful practice, that what happens is that the parents are "persuaded" to make their daughter(s) undergo this mutilation, by the older tribeswomen in the community, who also carry this mutilation out with unsterilised and often rusty instruments. (the horrific thing being that, usually, these women committing these crimes against the children were also victims of this horrible, horrible practice, years before, back in their turn)

 

From what I have read about it is falls under sheria law, it's not mentioned in the Qur'an but it is in the hadith as well as in the sunnah. Islamic scholars aren't under agreement as to whether or not it should be carried out after converting to Islam, some believe that it only applies to males whilst others believe it applies to both sex's.

[Plain Talker]

Many thanks for the explanation - appreciated. I was a little dubious when making the post but thought the only way to find out is to ask. I don't remember exactly why I believed the practice was performed by religious leaders - probably from the TV, but honestly believed it. I also believe the same applies to male circumcision - is this correct?

 

Edit: After posting the above I decided to google the subject. The perpetrators of FGM are described as "a traditional circumciser". The practice is classed as cultural and no reference is made to religion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

 

I know in Judaism, that the male infant is circumcised at 8 days old, by a "mohel" who is, I believe, a Rabbi, trained to do this.

 

for FGM, yes wiki says

 

"The procedures are generally performed, with or without anaesthesia, by a traditional circumciser (a cutter or exciseuse), usually an older woman who also acts as the local midwife, or daya in Egypt. Exciseuse translates from the French, directly, as "Exciser"

 

More from Wiki

 

"There is no mention of FGM in the Bible or Quran.[102] Although its origins are pre-Islamic, it became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female modesty and chastity, and is found only within or near Muslim communities.[103] It is praised in several hadith (sayings attributed to Muhammad) as noble but not required, along with advice that the milder forms are kinder to women.[104] In 2006 several leading Islamic scholars called for an end to the practice, and in 2007 the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research in Cairo ruled that it has no basis in Islamic law.[105] According to Mackie, it is not practised in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia, Islam's holiest cities, although there have been reports of it in that country, perhaps among immigrant communities.[106] Surveys have shown that there is a widespread belief in several countries, particularly Eritrea, Egypt, Guinea, Mali and Mauritania, that FGM is a religious requirement... Outside Islam, FGM has been practised by the Christian Copts in Egypt and Sudan, and by the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, the only Jewish group known to have practised it. Judaism requires male circumcision, but does not allow FGM"

 

---------- Post added 22-03-2014 at 16:06 ----------

 

too add, those who quote the ahadith about this "practice" need to realise that the hadith are what are known as "weak" hadith, and not strongly corroborated as other ahadith are.

[ivanava]

In June 2005, new figures showed that up to 76,000 women living in the UK may have undergone illegal operations.

 

Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country.

According to a 2013 UNICEF report, Egypt has the world's highest total number with 27.2 million women having undergone FGM, while Somalia has the highest incidence rate of FGM at 98%.

 

When you look at the percentage of women for each country the numbers are staggering.

[boyfriday]

In June 2005, new figures showed that up to 76,000 women living in the UK may have undergone illegal operations.

 

Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country.

According to a 2013 UNICEF report, Egypt has the world's highest total number with 27.2 million women having undergone FGM, while Somalia has the highest incidence rate of FGM at 98%.

 

When you look at the percentage of women for each country the numbers are staggering.

 

That makes utterly sickening reading. What's also disturbing is that this practice is often advocated by the mothers and older female relatives of these girls who use the justification that it was done to them..it's bloody outrageous.

 

Why don't the people from these impoverished communities concentrate on feeding their children rather than mutilating them.

[Plain Talker]

The 'firm evidence' is examination of the woman isn't it? All women at some time during their lifetime will undergo an intimate examination, so presumably at that stage any FGM would be highlighted and a complaint made if she chooses to follow through with one.

 

I think, especially if the mutilation done to the woman as a tot, or as a young girl, is only discovered when the woman is an adult, and, say, turning up at her doctors or a hospital presenting as pregnant, how does the medical professional say

 

a) where it happened...

b) who did it,

c) who abetted in the mutilation,

and d) when it was done?

 

The medical professional can surely only state that they have evidence that an assault happened on the woman, resulting in this mutilation, not when, where or by whom.

 

If the assault was more than about five or ten years ago, then the scars will not be discernible as to their age. Look at an appendectomy scar, for example...? once the healing, and the redness fades (within about a year or so of the surgery) you are left with a straightforward, bog-standard pale silvery scar, that could be 10, 15, or 20 or more years old.

 

How do we prove where the child was assaulted? Was it done here in the UK, or was it done on a sly visit back to the family in the parents' homeland? (where it may also be illegal)

 

How do we prove who did it? Unless we have reliable witnesses who can/will say "it was my 'auntie Y'" we are stymied.

 

Is the child old enough to recognise and remember who it was, who assaulted them? Will that just make the people assaulting children commit these assaults when the children are, perhaps, only four or five months old, so cannot remember, or at 1 yr or 18 months when they cannot say "X hurt me"?

 

Will the woman be willing to give evidence against people who may very well be their own grandmothers or aunts? Would they be intimidated against giving evidence? Would they be indoctrinated, more to the point, that "it happened to my grand mother, and my mother, and their mothers before that, so it's considered "just another cog in the wheel, for it to happen to me"?

 

---------- Post added 22-03-2014 at 17:45 ----------

 

From what I have read about it is falls under sheria law, it's not mentioned in the Qur'an but it is in the hadith as well as in the sunnah. Islamic scholars aren't under agreement as to whether or not it should be carried out after converting to Islam, some believe that it only applies to males whilst others believe it applies to both sex's.

 

see my comments above about how this (actually does not!) apply under Sharia law, and that the ahadith that are used to support assaults on the children who endure FGM are weak ahadith.