First prosecutions for Female Genital Mutilation

[boyfriday]

I think, especially if the mutilation done to the woman as a tot, or as a young girl, is only discovered when the woman is an adult, and, say, turning up at her doctors or a hospital presenting as pregnant, how does the medical professional say

 

a) where it happened...

b) who did it,

c) who abetted in the mutilation,

and d) when it was done?

 

The medical professional can surely only state that they have evidence that an assault happened on the woman, resulting in this mutilation, not when, where or by whom.

 

If the assault was more than about five or ten years ago, then the scars will not be discernible as to their age. Look at an appendectomy scar, for example...? once the healing, and the redness fades (within about a year or so of the surgery) you are left with a straightforward, bog-standard pale silvery scar, that could be 10, 15, or 20 or more years old.

 

How do we prove where the child was assaulted? Was it done here in the UK, or was it done on a sly visit back to the family in the parents' homeland? (where it may also be illegal)

 

How do we prove who did it? Unless we have reliable witnesses who can/will say "it was my 'auntie Y'" we are stymied.

 

Is the child old enough to recognise and remember who it was, who assaulted them? Will that just make the people assaulting children commit these assaults when the children are, perhaps, only four or five months old, so cannot remember, or at 1 yr or 18 months when they cannot say "X hurt me"?

 

Will the woman be willing to give evidence against people who may very well be their own grandmothers or aunts? Would they be intimidated against giving evidence? Would they be indoctrinated, more to the point, that "it happened to my grand mother, and my mother, and their mothers before that, so it's considered "just another cog in the wheel, for it to happen to me"?

 

If they're still alive PT I'd put the parents under the glare of a naked light bulb and a grizzly detective asking some searching questions.

 

Failing that I'd highly recommend mutilation of their genetalia until they start talking.

[ivanava]

 

see my comments above about how this (actually does not!) apply under Sharia law, and that the ahadith that are used to support assaults on the children who endure FGM are weak ahadith.

 

It makes you wonder why it is so prevalent in Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia.

 

I suppose it depends which Muslim you ask, some believe that female circumcision is part of Islam and some don't, but then its not unusual for people of the same faith to disagree with each other.

 

http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html

[SevenRivers]

Does anybody else find the report confusing?

 

It was alleged that following a patient giving birth in November 2012, a doctor at the Whittington Hospital repaired female genital mutilation that had previously been performed on the woman, allegedly carrying out female genital mutilation himself.

 

So he was repairing damage caused by FGM, but in the process committed FGM???

[Plain Talker]

It makes you wonder why it is so prevalent in Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia.

 

I suppose it depends which Muslim you ask, some believe that female circumcision is part of Islam and some don't, but then its not unusual for people of the same faith to disagree with each other.

 

http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html

 

I'm not sure what bit of my earlier comments you don't get, for you to still be puzzled.

 

I've already explained that it boils down to controlling women and their sexuality, and taking away their rights to determine their sexuality.

 

Historically, across many societies and many religions, you find that in a Patriarchal society, women's sexuality is perceived as being "frightening, and something that must be dampened and supressed, as with women themselves.

The Taleban is a case in point:- the "men" in that culture appear to feel threatened by the emancipation and education of women, which is why they prevent the girls and women from achieving an education, in order that the women have not enough knowledge (hopefully, to their way of thinking) to challenge the men.

 

If the Scriptures say that the husband has an obligation to ensure his wife's pleasure, then by definition, mutilating her in the way that FGM does, takes away pretty much all any of her ability to receive pleasure, and therefore goes against the scriptural edict.

[ivanava]

I'm not sure what bit of my earlier comments you don't get, for you to still be puzzled.

 

I've already explained that it boils down to controlling women and their sexuality, and taking away their rights to determine their sexuality.

 

Historically, across many societies and many religions, you find that in a Patriarchal society, women's sexuality is perceived as being "frightening, and something that must be dampened and supressed, as with women themselves.

The Taleban is a case in point:- the "men" in that culture appear to feel threatened by the emancipation and education of women, which is why they prevent the girls and women from achieving an education, in order that the women have not enough knowledge (hopefully, to their way of thinking) to challenge the men.

 

If the Scriptures say that the husband has an obligation to ensure his wife's pleasure, then by definition, mutilating her in the way that FGM does, takes away pretty much all any of her ability to receive pleasure, and therefore goes against the scriptural edict.

 

I'm not puzzled nor surprised that you think your opinion superior to the opinions of other Muslims. As I said, its not unusual for people of the same faith to be in disagreement on matter of faith.

 

Circumcised women experience sexual arousal and orgasm as frequently as uncircumcised women, according to a study in Nigeria.

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGM-sex.html

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is defined by the World Health Organization (WHO) as "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

However FGM should not influence sexual pleasure.

http://www.womenonwaves.org/en/page/4715/sexual-pleasure-after-female-genital-mutilation

Can you still have orgasms if your clitoris has been cut off? Certainly, say European researchers at the World Congress for Sexual Health, after studying African women who’ve been ‘circumcised’.

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/female-circumcision-orgasm-still-possible

 

Africa has the greatest amount of FGM, as the World Health Organization believes that somewhere between 100 million and 140 millon women and girls about have undergone the surgery throughout the world, 92 million of them over the age of ten living in Africa. Female Genital Mutilation has been outlawed in Britain, Canada, France, Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, and the United States. The following two maps show the percentages of women and girls in Africa from the ages of 15-49 who have undergone a FGM surgery.

 

There are three general types of FGM that a woman can have done to her. Girls anywhere from infancy to adulthood can have this practice done in any of the three types.

 

Sunna Circumcision (Type I)- The tip of a woman's clitoris is shaved or cut off. The word "sunna" refers to Muhammed's early tradition of the practice. This form of Female Genital Mutilation can be found in many countries in both East and West Africa, and countries in the Middle East.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~mcbri20s/classweb/worldpolitics/page1.html

Edited March 22, 2014 by ivanava

[skinz]

I'm not puzzled nor surprised that you think your opinion superior to the opinions of other Muslims.

 

 

Bet that gives Muslims a warm fuzzy feeling now you've become the champion and protector of Muslims.

[anywebsite]

Does anybody else find the report confusing?

 

 

 

So he was repairing damage caused by FGM, but in the process committed FGM???

 

It's very puzzling & worrying, hope he's not just being made a scapegoat. Hopefully other doctors wont be scared to treat FGM victims.

[Plain Talker]

I'm not puzzled nor surprised that you think your opinion superior to the opinions of other Muslims. As I said, its not unusual for people of the same faith to be in disagreement on matter of faith.

 

Most faiths, you will find, have folk that agree on the "biggies" of that faith, but may disagree on the minutiae.

 

Circumcised women experience sexual arousal and orgasm as frequently as uncircumcised women, according to a study in Nigeria.

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGM-sex.html

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is defined by the World Health Organization (WHO) as "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

However FGM should not influence sexual pleasure.

http://www.womenonwaves.org/en/page/4715/sexual-pleasure-after-female-genital-mutilation

Can you still have orgasms if your clitoris has been cut off? Certainly, say European researchers at the World Congress for Sexual Health, after studying African women who’ve been ‘circumcised’.

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/female-circumcision-orgasm-still-possible

 

Well, hey, that makes FGM alright then, doesn't it?

 

Africa has the greatest amount of FGM, as the World Health Organization believes that somewhere between 100 million and 140 millon women and girls about have undergone the surgery throughout the world, 92 million of them over the age of ten living in Africa. Female Genital Mutilation has been outlawed in Britain, Canada, France, Norway, Sweeden, Switzerland, and the United States. The following two maps show the percentages of women and girls in Africa from the ages of 15-49 who have undergone a FGM surgery.

 

There are three general types of FGM that a woman can have done to her. Girls anywhere from infancy to adulthood can have this practice done in any of the three types.

 

..and not one of them is "right", and reproducing a map to show where the children are mutilated doesn't make it any righter. All it confirms is exactly what I said earlier about this horrific practice, that it is a sub-saharan african cultural practice, and not Islamic. and having a map of where it happens isn't going to stop it happening:- EDUCATING those who would subject their children to being mutilated, and educating those who would carry it out,

 

Sunna Circumcision (Type I)- The tip of a woman's clitoris is shaved or cut off. The word "sunna" refers to Muhammed's early tradition of the practice. This form of Female Genital Mutilation can be found in many countries in both East and West Africa, and countries in the Middle East.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~mcbri20s/classweb/worldpolitics/page1.html

 

In this case, no, it doesn't refer to the Sunnah. The Sunnah refers to the habits and practices of the Prophet, which are, as I explained to you, already, supported by the ahadith. The hadith for this are weak, IE they are not reliable. and the practice is contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures.

[ivanava]

Most faiths, you will find, have folk that agree on the "biggies" of that faith, but may disagree on the minutiae.

Yep That why said

As I said, its not unusual for people of the same faith to be in disagreement on matter of faith.

 

As each of the Arabic faiths is based on the previous faiths, it's inevitable that there is going to be some common practices.

 

 

 

 

Well, hey, that makes FGM alright then, doesn't it?

No it doesn't make it OK, but it also doesn't make it non Islamic, because it doesn't stop the man giving pleasure to the women.

 

 

 

..and not one of them is "right", and reproducing a map to show where the children are mutilated doesn't make it any righter. All it confirms is exactly what I said earlier about this horrific practice, that it is a sub-saharan african cultural practice, and not Islamic. and having a map of where it happens isn't going to stop it happening:- EDUCATING those who would subject their children to being mutilated, and educating those who would carry it out,

You have clearly convinced yourself that you are right, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that you are wrong, but again its not unusual for people of faith, if you can convince your self of the existence of a God, you should be able to convince your self of just about anything.

 

You keep talking about it being cultural, the fact is that it is most prevalent in Islamic culture, and if the practice was against Islamic law it would have been abolished by now, its hasn't been abolished because it was adopted by Islam 1600 ago along with many of the other barbaric practices.

 

 

 

In this case, no, it doesn't refer to the Sunnah. The Sunnah refers to the habits and practices of the Prophet, which are, as I explained to you, already, supported by the ahadith. The hadith for this are weak, IE they are not reliable. and the practice is contrary to the teachings of the Scriptures.

 

The practice is clearly not contrary to the teachings of Scriptures because if it was it wouldn't be carried out by millions of Muslims.

 

And again it isn't unusual for people of the same faith to disagree with each other, with each being absolutely convinced that their version is the correct version.

[cuttsie]

Why is there all this facination [ by the religious nuts ]towards the reproductive organs of little kids.

They chop off the ends of both sexes before the poor kids can raise the slightest objection . All in the name of whatever God they then inflict on the minds of the same kids.

Child molestation comes to mind.