GPs are bad for your health?

[gimp27]

This reads like a combination conspiracy theory and bro science based advice on diet and health.

It appears to me that you know little about the NHS, GPs or health.

 

Dave is not far away with this. It astounds me how some GP,s will google symptoms and recommend treatments that aren't suitable. In short, just because a GP wears a stethoscope, does not mean they are competent. A lot depends on the cost of a service, and the dependency of the patient being a private one or an NHS funded one, thus cost being a deciding factor on the range of treatment available. Horrible as it sounds, Dr Smith of Anytown Surgery wont advise an obese chain smoker with seven kids to eat pears instead of McDonalds, because A) They know they wont take any notice, and B) they have too many of this stereotype patient to see, and become complacent, hoping the next quango scheme will get into peoples heads.

[onewheeldave]

Again, nonsense. If Britain is a nation of sick people and you want someone (other than the people themselves) to blame, look to the fast food industry, the big supermarkets for selling unhealthy food and booze cheaply, and the Tories for abolishing cookery lessons in schools in favour of 'food technology', for failing to invest in public transport and instead, promoting a car-culture which makes the population fatter, roads too dangerous for kids to play out and a death trap for cyclists. But don't blame doctors.

 

 

Plenty of obese, diabetic, heart disease sufferers etc, would love to follow medical advice concerning diet to cure their condition, many more, less ill, people would love to good proper diet advice in order to prevent their health going downhill.

 

The advice isn't there- we still have meat and dairy corporations buying/influencing medical diet policy so that meat/milk are presented as being good for health!

 

The medical profession over the past 2 decades has advised people to consume margarine, despite it being laced with trans-fats/hydrogenated vegatable fats: trans-fats now known to be directly responsible for around 80,000 deaths in the US alone.

 

Trans fats are illegal to put in food in Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and soon, Sweden, due to their governments taking notice of the various studies showing that they kill people.

 

The public are sick of following diet advice that does not work, sick of trying to lose weight via diets that do not work- no wonder so many have given up in despair.

 

That is where the medical profession has failed dismally.

 

I do agree with you that the car obsession, lack of cooking in schools and many other things are part of it, but please don't blame the population for trying to follow incorrect diet advice given to them by the medical profession.

[aliceBB]

UK doctors receive, I believe, typically well under 20 hours of nutritional training during their medical courses.

 

http://www.sarahbesthealth.com/think-doctors-know-about-nutrition/

 

the link here is US,

 

Precisely. So it is not evidence of how much nutritional training UK medics receive. Please don't pretend it is.

 

I know for a fact that my daughter, who qualified in Medicine in this country recently, undertook many months of study (over the initial 5 year undergraduate stage) at a high level on nutrition and its impact on health. She showed me one of the practice examinations on the first module and it was extremely rigorous. And FYI, no, GPs do not recommend the consumption of trans fats - quite the opposite.

 

However, that is not really the point. You are trying to claim that doctors are giving patients advice about their health which is ultimately killing them. It's very arrogant of you, as doctors have almost certainly studied their area of expertise (general medicine) in far more depth than you have. Britain has certainly lost its way with food, but it is not the fault of the medical profession. The food industry perhaps. Individuals, definitely. But in the end, people do not go to their GP for general advice about what they should and shouldn't be eating - they go to them when they have failed to heed the warnings that are out there day in day out, and need 'fixing'.

 

Be honest - how many UK adults don't actually know that

(i) it is unhealthy to be overweight?

(ii) it is unhealthy to be unfit/not do enough exercise?

(iii) it's unhealthy to eat too much sugar, too much fat and too much animal fat in particular?

(iv) it's unhealthy to avoid eating complex carbohydrates such as green, red and orange vegetables?

 

The answer is very few. The problem is that it is much easier to ignore this knowledge than to base your eating habits round it. That is not the fault of the health professionals.

[onewheeldave]

Precisely. So it is not evidence of how much nutritional training UK medics receive. Please don't pretend it is.

 

I pretended nothing of the kind. Here's what I said

 

UK doctors receive, I believe, typically well under 20 hours of nutritional training during their medical courses.

 

http://www.sarahbesthealth.com/think-doctors-know-about-nutrition/

 

the link here is US, but points out the lack on emphasis on nutrition in medical training. It also has quotes from Dr John Mcdougal who recently testified before the US senate committee on that very issue.

 

Because I do believe UK doctors under 20 hours training. Can I find a link at the mo'? No. Hence why I pointed out that the link was US.

 

If you think UK GPs receive more than 20hrs on nutrition, feel free to find a link showing it

 

Incidently, the 2 links given are about 2 well respected US doctors who are basically saying that the conventional nutritional knowledge used by both UK and US doctors is seriously flawed.

 

Did you read them?

 

 

However, that is not really the point. You are trying to claim that doctors are giving patients advice about their health which is ultimately killing them. It's very arrogant of you, as doctors have almost certainly studied their area of expertise (general medicine) in far more depth than you have

 

 

Cos, if/when you did/do, how will you reconcile it with your rosy world view of doctors necessarily being experts in health/nutrition and necessarily be far more knowledgable than me, with the reality that many doctors, like the 2 mentioned in the links, who also think that the state of nutritional knowledge in the medical profession is dire? So dire that one of them is testifying to the Senate committee to try and change that.

 

---------- Post added 12-04-2014 at 22:50 ----------

 

And FYI, no, GPs do not recommend the consumption of trans fats - quite the opposite.

Again, I said nothing of the kind:

The medical profession over the past 2 decades has advised people to consume margarine, despite it being laced with trans-fats/hydrogenated vegatable fats: trans-fats now known to be directly responsible for around 80,000 deaths in the US alone.

 

i.e. in the past. (Though I'd not be surprised if doctors were still recomending margarine over butter.

 

Do you not recall the demonisation of butter, and the public recomendations to switch to margarine?

 

What's in margarine? It's certainly not butter-fat is it? No, it's industrially produced trans fats/hydrogenated vegetable fats- the ones that are now illegal to pass off as food in the 4 Denmark, Sweden and at least 2 other countries on the grounds that they are toxic to health.

 

---------- Post added 12-04-2014 at 22:55 ----------

 

 

Be honest - how many UK adults don't actually know that

(i) it is unhealthy to be overweight?

(ii) it is unhealthy to be unfit/not do enough exercise?

(iii) it's unhealthy to eat too much sugar, too much fat and too much animal fat in particular?

(iv) it's unhealthy to avoid eating complex carbohydrates such as green, red and orange vegetables?

 

The answer is very few. The problem is that it is much easier to ignore this knowledge than to base your eating habits round it. That is not the fault of the health professionals.

 

You be honest. How many UK adults know what a healthy diet is? Do you know? If yes, prove it- post on this thread about what consitutes, in your view, a diet that maximises health, produces and maintains a lean body, and minimises the chances of diabetes, heart disease, cancer and other serious illnesses.

[Harleyman]

My gp has been slowly killing me for several years.

 

I am just out of hospital after a crisis blew up leaving me dangerously at risk. The hospital found that two of my meds interact to cause a problem with sodium level in my blood. Had it gone on much longer I could have died.

 

Back home, it took me just a few minutes to find out about these two drugs incompatibility.

 

Thank you very much gp. Who can you trust these days?

 

A good GP and there are plenty of those around

[aliceBB]

A good GP and there are plenty of those around

 

Absolutely.

 

Having checked out some of 'onewheeldave's somewhat idiosyncractic and unscientific contributions to other threads on health and nutrition, I've decided to leave him to his soapbox. He is (nearly) right about some aspects of eating, but wrong about others. We all have our pet theories and passions - it's case of being pragmatic about what is appropriate and possible in a an imperfect world.

 

However, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with blaming the nation's unhealthiness on GPs, ffs. It would be like blaming MOT garages for your brakes failing when you have failed to get your car serviced or MOT'd for years, or blaming your child's secondary school teachers for the fact that your child is a lazy arse with no manners.

[onewheeldave]

 

However, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with blaming the nation's unhealthiness on GPs, ffs...

 

And the fully qualified doctors who also blame the nations unhealthiness on our medical system/GPs- should they be allowed to get away with it?

 

---------- Post added 13-04-2014 at 14:29 ----------

 

Absolutely.

 

Having checked out some of 'onewheeldave's somewhat idiosyncractic and unscientific contributions to other threads on health and nutrition, I've decided to leave him to his soapbox. He is (nearly) right about some aspects of eating, but wrong about others. We all have our pet theories and passions - it's case of being pragmatic about what is appropriate and possible in a an imperfect world.

 

I'm 'nearly right'? That suggests you think you know what a healthy diet is? I did invite you to post you idea of what a healthy diet is- you appear to have not done so.

 

It should be easy, I could sum it up in a paragraph- why don't you have a go?

 

And, rather than just saying I'm wrong/unscientific etc, why not actually address the points I'm making? At the moment you're simply, albeit unintentionally, trolling away. Address some points, give some indicatation that you know something usefull about health/diet.

[Cyclone]

You need to address the actual points I'm making then, don't you

 

If, as you claim, I , then it should be fairly easy to demolish the points made. If you don't then the obvious conclusion is you're not able to.

 

Most of the 'conspiracy' bit is based around GPs not wanting to 'cure' people due to a profit motive.

The NHS is public funded, not profit making, GPs are salaried, they're also over worked and have no incentive to keep people ill.

 

What was the rest of it, are, your non evidence based rant about diet. Did you make any specific point that needs countering? It was mostly just verbal arm waving about how GPs mislead you.

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2014 at 07:40 ----------

 

Plenty of obese, diabetic, heart disease sufferers etc, would love to follow medical advice concerning diet to cure their condition, many more, less ill, people would love to good proper diet advice in order to prevent their health going downhill.

 

The advice isn't there- we still have meat and dairy corporations buying/influencing medical diet policy so that meat/milk are presented as being good for health!

 

The medical profession over the past 2 decades has advised people to consume margarine, despite it being laced with trans-fats/hydrogenated vegatable fats: trans-fats now known to be directly responsible for around 80,000 deaths in the US alone.

 

Trans fats are illegal to put in food in Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and soon, Sweden, due to their governments taking notice of the various studies showing that they kill people.

The advice at the time was the best that could be given. Subsequent medical research proved transfats to be harmful. That's the nature of science, you keep investigating and evaluating. Sometimes your hypotheses are not entirely correct.

 

The public are sick of following diet advice that does not work, sick of trying to lose weight via diets that do not work- no wonder so many have given up in despair.

 

That is where the medical profession has failed dismally.

 

I do agree with you that the car obsession, lack of cooking in schools and many other things are part of it, but please don't blame the population for trying to follow incorrect diet advice given to them by the medical profession.

 

Nobody has any scientific nutritional advice that is more advanced though. Paleo, plant only, no grain, atkins, reverse atkins, low calorie, low fat, low sugar, they're all just fads without an evidential base.

[onewheeldave]

Most of the 'conspiracy' bit is based around GPs not wanting to 'cure' people due to a profit motive.

The NHS is public funded, not profit making, GPs are salaried, they're also over worked and have no incentive to keep people ill.

 

Lots of money (£billions) goes through the medical system- drugs/treatments/equipment are very expensive.

 

You be the judge, what gives most profit: 'treating' heart disease with surgery and/or a statins prescription which will endure till the patients life ends, or, curing it via a plant-strong diet?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The advice at the time was the best that could be given. Subsequent medical research proved transfats to be harmful. That's the nature of science, you keep investigating and evaluating. Sometimes your hypotheses are not entirely correct.

 

Well, it was wrong advice at the time, in that trans fats were still killing around 80,000 americans yearly, regardless of whether the scientists knew it then.

 

So, on medical advice, backed up by 'scientific studies' of the time, 80,000 poor gullible citizens switched from butter to margarine, and died as a result. Meanwhile, other people, who, for whatever reason, ate mainly a diet of plant-based unprocessed foods, lived healthy lives.

 

Scientific studies are also expensive, are tend to be only done in cases where the pharmacutical companies can smell a profit.

 

Did you know that one of the studies used by the medical profession to justify their demonisation of salt, involved giving rats the human equivalent of 500 grams/day of salt? Is that science?

 

Did you know that several recent studies have indicated that people eating low amounts of salt over several years, have higher mortality rates than those not on low salt diets? Are we going to have another about turn from the medical profession regarding salt consumption?

 

Look around you- you live in a culture with the most technologically advanced medical system in the world- a culture where obesity is heading towards being the norm, where diabetes, heart disease are cancer are rife- somethings not working.

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody has any scientific nutritional advice that is more advanced though. Paleo, plant only, no grain, atkins, reverse atkins, low calorie, low fat, low sugar, they're all just fads without an evidential base.

 

Right off the top of my head, concerning plant-strong, there's the China study (easily googled) a host of other studies and, of course, all the US doctors backing the plant strong movement.

 

To be honest, even Atkins and pretty much any of those diets, does have multiple studies backing them up. Sadly, many of the studies are clearly crooked- the dairy/meat industry is notorious for paying for studies designed to back up their health claims.

[Cyclone]

Why would a GP care which is most profitable, neither are profitable for the GP, neither are profitable for the NHS. The GP does not work for the company which produces statins.

This might be an issue in the US market, it simply isn't with public health care in the UK.

 

Studies are not only funded by drugs companies, they are funded by many health research groups, universities, government grants and so on. The science is also peer reviewed by qualified people who have nothing to gain from aiding some sort of conspiracy and a lot to lose from not spotting a flawed paper.

 

Yes, a study involving high doses of salt could well be science. The important question isn't what was done, but how it was done and what conclusions were drawn.

 

You list multiple independent factors, obesity for example is on the increase due to increasingly sedentary lifestyles and the easy availability of food. Cancer is more easily and more quickly detected and life spans are longer, meaning that cancer over a life time is more likely to happen.

 

I'll be honest, I've never heard of plant-strong. I'll google it and have a look. What makes you think that this particular advice is the right one though? It looks like confirmation bias to me, you decry medical advice on nutrition, talk about margarine and how a mistake was made, and yet you're convinced that plant-strong has got it right...

Atkins never had any science behind it, it had marketing behind it.