Gerry Adams arrested.

[Harleyman]

Harleyman.

 

Unless those 'plastic paddy's' were part Cherokee they were not racially American were they?

 

In fact no matter how long their families had lived in the USA they were in fact exactly as American as you are.

 

That is legally, emotionally and faithfully American.

 

But not 'Native' of the land American.

 

Where you're born doesn't alter your DNA or racial characteristics.

 

JFK's grandparents emigrated to the US and all eight of his great grandparents were born in Ireland, he was Irish and also an American.

And some of those Americans that you refer to as plastic paddys may well be in the same position.

 

And no I'm not English and neither am I Irish, I can't be English I had an Irish mother and by exactly the same token I can't be Irish, I had an English father.

 

The situation is dealt with in The Oxford English Dictionary, 'Anglo-Irish someone with one English parent and one Irish parent.'

 

My passport is Irish I am a Republican, not in the IRA sense in the American, French, German and Irish political sense.

 

Possessing it once saved me £35- compared to a British passport - when crossing at the Avra checkpoint between Israel and Jordan.

 

I was born with joint nationality as indeed were you.

 

Unless American statute forbids it you could hold three passports!

 

That would confuse them at the Mexican border.

 

De Valera was an American citizen originally having been born in New York and that's all that saved him from the firing squad so I find that story hard to believe.

 

As for the British attitude of 'why didn't Ireland join with us to fight the foe' I find it hilarious in it's complete and utter ignorance or disregard of the history between the two nations.

 

It was only 89 years previously that Britain had committed genocide against the Irish nation by means of the non existent 'famine'.

 

Remember at the start of the war no one was aware of the Holocaust against the Jews.

It was originally just another one of those never ending European wars, in which the Irish had taken part on several sides ( Remember Fontenoy! ) over the century's.

 

I quite agree that the Irish republic had a good reason not to join the Uk in the war against Hitler. There must have been a very large legacy of bitterness around at the time.

 

A state of neutrality however is only tolerated as long as it suits the combatant countries.

 

Swiss neutrality suited both sides. It served both sides as a listening post on the other as well as any meeting place if there was a possibility of peace negotiations.

 

In the case of Ireland. Britain respected that neutrality but many merchant ships and lives were lost because of that... but that's not my point.

 

The point is and as I have already stated that if Hitler, had carried out a succesful invasion of the United Kingdom including Northern Ireland Hitler would, with or without De Valera's blessing have militarily occupied the west coast of Ireland simply because it was a vitally strategic area in which to build U-Boat pens in the war against the United States.

 

If the Irish had accepted it and co-operated then the occupation would have been more or less about the same as the German occupation of the Channel Islands.

 

On the other hand if there had been any attempts at partisan resistance the Irish would have found themselves dealing with a far worse people than the English but I really shouldn't have to tell you that

[mjw47]

I quite agree that the Irish republic had a good reason not to join the Uk in the war against Hitler. There must have been a very large legacy of bitterness around at the time.

 

A state of neutrality however is only tolerated as long as it suits the combatant countries.

 

Swiss neutrality suited both sides. It served both sides as a listening post on the other as well as any meeting place if there was a possibility of peace negotiations.

 

In the case of Ireland. Britain respected that neutrality but many merchant ships and lives were lost because of that... but that's not my point.

 

The point is and as I have already stated that if Hitler, had carried out a succesful invasion of the United Kingdom including Northern Ireland Hitler would, with or without De Valera's blessing have militarily occupied the west coast of Ireland simply because it was a vitally strategic area in which to build U-Boat pens in the war against the United States.

 

If the Irish had accepted it and co-operated then the occupation would have been more or less about the same as the German occupation of the Channel Islands.

 

On the other hand if there had been any attempts at partisan resistance the Irish would have found themselves dealing with a far worse people than the English but I really shouldn't have to tell you that

 

First of all Ireland's neutrality was suspect to say the least as indeed it is today.

 

A few years ago my wife and I visited the Flying Boat museum at Foynes which is on the south bank of the Shannon estuary in County Limerick.

 

Interesting experience, it proved an excellent meeting place for the Americans and British to meet during the War and exchange secret information with no possibility of interception by the enemy.

 

Every single sailor or airman who landed in Ireland after being shot down, sunk, or becoming lost was returned over the border to NI.

 

Every single German who met the same fate was detained for the duration.

 

More Irishmen joined the British armed forces from what was at that time 'The Free State' than did from NI even when you allow for the population percentage.

 

Many more refused to fight in British uniform and joined the US forces.

 

The American officer who was in charge of the patrol that found Saddam Hussein in his hole in the ground was the third generation of his family to serve in the US forces.

 

His grandfather served in the First War, his father landed on Omah beach in the Second war.

 

He was the first of them to be born in America, both his father and grandfather were born in my mothers County of Clare.

 

As for the Germans being worse than the British, when my mother was 13 she witnessed the Black and Tans shooting from the back of lorry at a 12 year old school friend as she ran away from them up a country lane.

 

Don't kid yourself the Irish had experience of dealing with scum.

[Harleyman]

First of all Ireland's neutrality was suspect to say the least as indeed it is today.

 

A few years ago my wife and I visited the Flying Boat museum at Foynes which is on the south bank of the Shannon estuary in County Limerick.

 

Interesting experience, it proved an excellent meeting place for the Americans and British to meet during the War and exchange secret information with no possibility of interception by the enemy.

 

Every single sailor or airman who landed in Ireland after being shot down, sunk, or becoming lost was returned over the border to NI.

 

Every single German who met the same fate was detained for the duration.

 

More Irishmen joined the British armed forces from what was at that time 'The Free State' than did from NI even when you allow for the population percentage.

 

Many more refused to fight in British uniform and joined the US forces.

 

The American officer who was in charge of the patrol that found Saddam Hussein in his hole in the ground was the third generation of his family to serve in the US forces.

 

His grandfather served in the First War, his father landed on Omah beach in the Second war.

 

He was the first of them to be born in America, both his father and grandfather were born in my mothers County of Clare.

 

As for the Germans being worse than the British, when my mother was 13 she witnessed the Black and Tans shooting from the back of lorry at a 12 year old school friend as she ran away from them up a country lane.

 

Don't kid yourself the Irish had experience of dealing with scum.

 

I dont disagree with or dispute any of that mjw47 All I'm saying is that if De Valera thought that Irish neutrality would have been inviolate in the scenario I descibed then he was sadly deluded.

 

It's not hard to imagine from what the peoples of Nazi occupied Europe went through that partisan resistance resulting in the deaths of German military were summmarily dealt with by the random rounding up of civilians and a firing squad to follow. The sad death of the 12 year old you described pales in comparison but I also agree that the Black and Tans were the very dregs of human scum.

 

As regards Irishmen and pseudo Irishmen old JFK was first and foremost essentially American of the New England Yankee type. His ethnicity and DNA being only secondary factors. He surrounded himself with the likes of himself during his administration and had sentimental attachements to Ireland perhaps but he was far from Kosher.

 

In my case I was born and raised in Sheffield, thought like a Tyke, spoke like a Tyke. MY old Irish grandpa and my mother told me many stories of Ireland but nevertheless I never thought myself as being "Irish" nor could I identify myself with Ireland.

 

I've lived in the US for donkey's years, integrated with the natives and much of the culture has rubbed off on me but there's still that Tyke part around also.

 

Maybe in my particular case I'm some kind of sem-plastic Yank

[mjw47]

The 12 year old didn't die Harleyman, they missed her, my mother reckoned they were drunk.

 

I actually met her years later.

 

Not for one moment do I think that De Valera wasn't fully aware of what would happen if the Germans won and I imagine thought would have been given to what to do about it.

 

Presumably, if they had managed to land in Britain and establish a bridgehead then the fighting would have been intense and reasonably prolonged.

 

That being the case it's difficult to see how the Germans would have been able to prevent a simultaneous landing in Ireland of American troops, Warships and Aircraft.

 

Given the relationship between the USA and Ireland not only would it not have been opposed it would have been assisted.

 

As to Kennedy and the whole identity thing we appear to be talking at cross purposes.

 

There is nationality and there is race, sometimes quite often they are one and the same.

 

But there is a major difference. You can change your nationality, more than once if you choose. But you cannot change your race, it is an intrinsic part of you, it's in your DNA.

 

Kennedy was an American by birth and culture but his race was Irish, he had no other blood in him.

 

There are normally two basic ways to obtain citizenship of a sovereign country, jus sanguinis ' right of blood ' or jus soli right of the soil. being born there, whether or not you are of the race of the majority.

 

Obviously long term residency can also come under jus soli.

 

The difference is that I was entitled to my Irish passport by right of blood. All I had to do was prove that I was my mothers son.

 

I didn't have to sit an exam or take an oath as it was a birthright.

 

Now you have chosen American citizenship and therefore you are an American.

 

Racially however you are an Anglo-Irish American, in the same way that there are Italian Americans and African Americans.

 

Makes no odds in real terms, in the immortal words of the great philosopher Pop Eye ' I yam what I yam.'

[Harleyman]

The 12 year old didn't die Harleyman, they missed her, my mother reckoned they were drunk.

 

I actually met her years later.

 

Not for one moment do I think that De Valera wasn't fully aware of what would happen if the Germans won and I imagine thought would have been given to what to do about it.

 

Presumably, if they had managed to land in Britain and establish a bridgehead then the fighting would have been intense and reasonably prolonged.

 

That being the case it's difficult to see how the Germans would have been able to prevent a simultaneous landing in Ireland of American troops, Warships and Aircraft.

 

Given the relationship between the USA and Ireland not only would it not have been opposed it would have been assisted.

 

As to Kennedy and the whole identity thing we appear to be talking at cross purposes.

 

There is nationality and there is race, sometimes quite often they are one and the same.

 

But there is a major difference. You can change your nationality, more than once if you choose. But you cannot change your race, it is an intrinsic part of you, it's in your DNA.

 

Kennedy was an American by birth and culture but his race was Irish, he had no other blood in him.

 

There are normally two basic ways to obtain citizenship of a sovereign country, jus sanguinis ' right of blood ' or jus soli right of the soil. being born there, whether or not you are of the race of the majority.

 

Obviously long term residency can also come under jus soli.

 

The difference is that I was entitled to my Irish passport by right of blood. All I had to do was prove that I was my mothers son.

 

I didn't have to sit an exam or take an oath as it was a birthright.

 

Now you have chosen American citizenship and therefore you are an American.

 

Racially however you are an Anglo-Irish American, in the same way that there are Italian Americans and African Americans.

 

Makes no odds in real terms, in the immortal words of the great philosopher Pop Eye ' I yam what I yam.'

 

Yes indeed an American. I dont believe in all this Irish-American, African-American, Japanese -American hyphenated stuff either.

 

For instance why would someone whose ancestors were slapped aboard a slave ship over 300 years ago still think theres any connection to Africa? And that applies to any other American whose ancestors are so far distant that the connection is lost in the mists of time

 

My old golfing mate Steve Grueber would get really upset if I called him a German-Amercan. I can just imagine that

Fourth generation American and proud of it. But some people see it all different from others I guess.

 

I read an amusing story a few years back about New York cops living in retrirement in Ireland. They were of Irish ancestry and I suppose that the sentimental connections were there, passed down by parents and grandparents. Apparently when these cops had handed in their badges and started to draw their pensions they had embarked on a long held dream of living that dream as Irishmen in the Emerald Isle. What happened? They ended up belonging to an American expats club, meeting regularly, drinking imported American beer, eating burgers and hot dogs, exchanging the latest news from relatives about what was happening in the Big Apple or getting copies of the NY Times shipped over and in short finding that the culture thay had chosen to live within was surprsiingly somewhat alien

 

Perhaps you can tell me if after Zimbabwe became a sovereign state the former white Rhodesians, many of whom had lost their farms were given resident status in the UK if they wished to re-locate there? I heard that there were some problems with that from the British immigration dept. but after all they were of British blood and ancestry

 

When i became an American citizen i was told that although I was now a US citizen I might under British law still be regarded as a British citizen with any obligations to serve for example in HM Forces in time of war.

 

"Blimey" I cried out. "I already did my service in HM forces and I already done service in the US Marine Corps. What more does anybody want with a bloke on the wrong side of thirty"? That got a laugh but the fact remains that under the laws of some countries that was true

 

We seem to have drifted far away from old Gerry. Apparently he has now been released and it's probable tht he wont be charged or hear any further from the law.

A matter of expediency in order to keep the howling, over passionate mobs at bay it seems.

[DeathAxe]

This terrorist needs hanging. He will get away with it though, having white skin and all.

[mjw47]

This terrorist needs hanging. He will get away with it though, having white skin and all.

 

First of all - leaving aside that we don't have the death penalty in this country - you need to convict someone before you sentence them, and no one can do that without proof, which isn't currently available.

 

Secondly, whilst Gerry Adams may or may not be guilty, I can assure you that in comparison with others in that whole sorry affair he's almost a saint.

 

There are members of the security forces of this country guilty of far more than Gerry and they have walked away from murder and torture without a care in the world.

 

If those idiots are going to indulge in one sided blind eyed 'justice' then it will all kick off again.

 

Adams was central to the situation moving from terrorism to politics.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2014 at 09:50 ----------

 

Yes indeed an American. I dont believe in all this Irish-American, African-American, Japanese -American hyphenated stuff either.

 

For instance why would someone whose ancestors were slapped aboard a slave ship over 300 years ago still think theres any connection to Africa? And that applies to any other American whose ancestors are so far distant that the connection is lost in the mists of time

 

My old golfing mate Steve Grueber would get really upset if I called him a German-Amercan. I can just imagine that

Fourth generation American and proud of it. But some people see it all different from others I guess.

 

I read an amusing story a few years back about New York cops living in retrirement in Ireland. They were of Irish ancestry and I suppose that the sentimental connections were there, passed down by parents and grandparents. Apparently when these cops had handed in their badges and started to draw their pensions they had embarked on a long held dream of living that dream as Irishmen in the Emerald Isle. What happened? They ended up belonging to an American expats club, meeting regularly, drinking imported American beer, eating burgers and hot dogs, exchanging the latest news from relatives about what was happening in the Big Apple or getting copies of the NY Times shipped over and in short finding that the culture thay had chosen to live within was surprsiingly somewhat alien

 

Perhaps you can tell me if after Zimbabwe became a sovereign state the former white Rhodesians, many of whom had lost their farms were given resident status in the UK if they wished to re-locate there? I heard that there were some problems with that from the British immigration dept. but after all they were of British blood and ancestry

 

When i became an American citizen i was told that although I was now a US citizen I might under British law still be regarded as a British citizen with any obligations to serve for example in HM Forces in time of war.

 

"Blimey" I cried out. "I already did my service in HM forces and I already done service in the US Marine Corps. What more does anybody want with a bloke on the wrong side of thirty"? That got a laugh but the fact remains that under the laws of some countries that was true

 

We seem to have drifted far away from old Gerry. Apparently he has now been released and it's probable tht he wont be charged or hear any further from the law.

A matter of expediency in order to keep the howling, over passionate mobs at bay it seems.

 

As I said earlier, we're talking at cross purposes.

 

You can change your nationality to that of any nation which will accept you, but there's absolutely nothing whatsoever anyone can do with regard to their race.

 

We are all born into specific racial groups, a lot of us, possibly the majority in western countries,are a mixture of races but whatever that is , that's it.

 

Wishing or saying that you are something else changes nothing.

 

The actual country you are born in changes nothing in racial terms although it may - not always - give you nationality.

 

Your mate Steve is a German American whether he likes it or not ( unless of course his maternal line was something different which would then make him German- Whatever American.)

 

Can't see his problem personally, Eisenhower was German American, and old Ike was OK.

 

There's no choice involved in it.

 

Your story of the retirees is simply a case of culture clash, no different to people who are city born and bred and dream of retiring to the country.

 

They get there and find life is slower, the cocks crow at daybreak, wild animals are killing each other throughout the night and screaming in the process and they can't get to the theatre without major hassle.

 

The whole Gerry Adams thing was a **** up by the authorities in my view. It stinks of politics, and that's a dangerous game to play in that part of the world.

 

There are elections coming up, Shinn Fein are becoming more and more popular both sides of the border since they renounced violence.

 

A theory doing the rounds in Ireland is that this was set up thinking that Adams would refuse to co operate until after the election.

 

This would then be leaked, giving the impression that there was some hard evidence not previously available and he was 'running scared'.

 

Adams called their bluff by going in voluntarily, so they made it look as bad as they could by arresting and holding him for as long as possible.

 

Letting him go shows that they have nothing more than they ever had, namely bugger all.

 

This could well backfire and actually help Shinn Fein at the election.

[Harleyman]

First of all - leaving aside that we don't have the death penalty in this country - you need to convict someone before you sentence them, and no one can do that without proof, which isn't currently available.

 

Secondly, whilst Gerry Adams may or may not be guilty, I can assure you that in comparison with others in that whole sorry affair he's almost a saint.

 

There are members of the security forces of this country guilty of far more than Gerry and they have walked away from murder and torture without a care in the world.

 

If those idiots are going to indulge in one sided blind eyed 'justice' then it will all kick off again.

 

Adams was central to the situation moving from terrorism to politics.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2014 at 09:50 ----------

 

 

As I said earlier, we're talking at cross purposes.

 

You can change your nationality to that of any nation which will accept you, but there's absolutely nothing whatsoever anyone can do with regard to their race.

 

We are all born into specific racial groups, a lot of us, possibly the majority in western countries,are a mixture of races but whatever that is , that's it.

 

Wishing or saying that you are something else changes nothing.

 

The actual country you are born in changes nothing in racial terms although it may - not always - give you nationality.

 

Your mate Steve is a German American whether he likes it or not ( unless of course his maternal line was something different which would then make him German- Whatever American.)

 

Can't see his problem personally, Eisenhower was German American, and old Ike was OK.

 

There's no choice involved in it.

 

Your story of the retirees is simply a case of culture clash, no different to people who are city born and bred and dream of retiring to the country.

 

They get there and find life is slower, the cocks crow at daybreak, wild animals are killing each other throughout the night and screaming in the process and they can't get to the theatre without major hassle.

 

The whole Gerry Adams thing was a **** up by the authorities in my view. It stinks of politics, and that's a dangerous game to play in that part of the world.

 

There are elections coming up, Shinn Fein are becoming more and more popular both sides of the border since they renounced violence.

 

A theory doing the rounds in Ireland is that this was set up thinking that Adams would refuse to co operate until after the election.

 

This would then be leaked, giving the impression that there was some hard evidence not previously available and he was 'running scared'.

 

Adams called their bluff by going in voluntarily, so they made it look as bad as they could by arresting and holding him for as long as possible.

 

Letting him go shows that they have nothing more than they ever had, namely bugger all.

 

This could well backfire and actually help Shinn Fein at the election.

 

I said they retired to Ireland....... not Barnsley

[mjw47]

I said they retired to Ireland....... not Barnsley

 

:hihi: So you remember Barnsley?

[Mr Clowning]

I was just about to post and realised it said Adams and not McCann