EU and democracy

[dosxuk]

I posted the definition of democracy and it doesn't exclude anyone from being represented in government.

 

The people are still represented, they have someone they can take their views to, but that doesn't mean they will be passed on for further discussion. That is the way democracy has always worked.

 

Why do you consider it nonsense for everyone to be given the vote on EU membership?

 

Because when you are selecting a representative for a group, you aren't being asked if you believe that group should exist. If you're don't care, don't bother voting - that is your democratic right.

 

If we had a vote at work to change the brand of toilet paper, we wouldn't also have an option of banning toilet breaks. It's complete nonsense, and you know it.

[ivanava]

The people are still represented, they have someone they can take their views to, but that doesn't mean they will be passed on for further discussion. That is the way democracy has always worked.

 

No they are not, someone may make decisions on their behalf but doesn't actually represent their views.

 

 

 

 

Because when you are selecting a representative for a group, you aren't being asked if you believe that group should exist. If you're don't care, don't bother voting - that is your democratic right.

 

If we had a vote at work to change the brand of toilet paper, we wouldn't also have an option of banning toilet breaks. It's complete nonsense, and you know it.

 

I can choose not to be a member of most groups though, I can't choose not to be a member of the EU.

[tzijlstra]

 

But I didn't choose him and he doesn't share my opinions so doesn't represent me, hence not very democratic.

 

If you didn't choose them, that means they either lost the election, or you didn't vote, neither of which is undemocratic.

 

3 1/2.

 

---------- Post added 02-05-2014 at 23:18 ----------

 

 

 

I can choose not to be a member of most groups though, I can't choose not to be a member of the EU.

 

Yes you can, just like you can to choose not being a Brit - move to a non-EU country.

 

4 1/2

 

---------- Post added 02-05-2014 at 23:19 ----------

 

Btw, you really are taking the mickey tonight, aren't you. Even 10 year olds have a better understanding of democracy than you do.

[ivanava]

If you didn't choose them, that means they either lost the election, or you didn't vote, neither of which is undemocratic.

 

No it means I didn't get to vote on EU membership which is undemocratic.

 

Yes you can, just like you can to choose not being a Brit - move to a non-EU country.

Also incorrect, I can't choose not to be British because it is my nationality and that won't change, I'm also not free to move to any country of my choosing.

 

 

Btw, you really are taking the mickey tonight, aren't you. Even 10 year olds have a better understanding of democracy than you do.

 

Why is it the people that claim to be the most intelligent are generally the most abusive people, one would expect intelligent people to counter arguments without resorting to abuse.

[tzijlstra]

No it means I didn't get to vote on EU membership which is undemocratic.

five and a half.

Also incorrect, I can't choose not to be British because it is my nationality and that won't change, I'm also not free to move to any country of my choosing.

 

Yes you can, I can elect to forego my Dutch nationality and become British should I choose to. And yes you can, just because you are obsessed with immigration doesn't stop you emigrating.

Six and a half

 

Why is it the people that claim to be the most intelligent are generally the most abusive people, one would expect intelligent people to counter arguments without resorting to abuse.

 

It must be because you bring out the best in them sunshine. You haven't provided any valid arguments yet, merely your flawed opinion on what you think democracy is.

 

I will give you a half for that.

 

Seven.

[dosxuk]

No it means I didn't get to vote on EU membership which is undemocratic.

 

There's a million and one things that affect your daily life, from what side of the road you drive on, to which days of the week are the weekend, which you also didn't get to vote on. Does that make them undemocratic too?

 

If you were alive and of voting age when the UK joined the EU, the people you elected (regardless of if the person you voted for won) were voting on your behalf. If you were too young, then diddums, we shouldn't have to have a referendum on every decision ever made by Government every 15 years to enable each generation to get their say.

 

If you want to leave the EU, your democratic option isn't the election to find MEPs, it's the UK elections next year, where you have the option of voting for a party who will leave the EU. If you get enough mates to join you, your ideals of isolation and keeping out johnny foreigner will come true. So no, you're democratic rights are not being ignored by this election, you're just not reading the question and answering something completely different, and I'd never expect you, of all people, to do something like that.

[ivanava]

Yes you can, I can elect to forego my Dutch nationality and become British should I choose to.

 

 

But I can't choose to forgo my nationality and become Australian, or American or Mexican, ect. ect. ect. I am free to move to another EU country but that won't really solve the problem will it, and I can delete my identity, so anywhere I go in the world the authorities will be able to identify me. Just because its possible for some doesn't mean its possible for everyone.

 

---------- Post added 03-05-2014 at 07:10 ----------

 

It must be because you bring out the best in them sunshine. You haven't provided any valid arguments yet, merely your flawed opinion on what you think democracy is.

 

I will give you a half for that.

 

Seven.

 

It was your OP and so far you haven't provided evidence to support your stance, all you have done is counter the counter argument with insults.

 

---------- Post added 03-05-2014 at 07:14 ----------

 

There's a million and one things that affect your daily life, from what side of the road you drive on, to which days of the week are the weekend, which you also didn't get to vote on. Does that make them undemocratic too?

 

If you were alive and of voting age when the UK joined the EU, the people you elected (regardless of if the person you voted for won) were voting on your behalf. If you were too young, then diddums, we shouldn't have to have a referendum on every decision ever made by Government every 15 years to enable each generation to get their say.

 

If you want to leave the EU, your democratic option isn't the election to find MEPs, it's the UK elections next year, where you have the option of voting for a party who will leave the EU. If you get enough mates to join you, your ideals of isolation and keeping out johnny foreigner will come true. So no, you're democratic rights are not being ignored by this election, you're just not reading the question and answering something completely different, and I'd never expect you, of all people, to do something like that.

 

I was under the impression they voted for a common market and not the European union.

[tzijlstra]

But I can't choose to forgo my nationality and become Australian, or American or Mexican, ect. ect. ect. I am free to move to another EU country but that won't realty solve the problem will it, and I can delete my identity, so anywhere I go in the world the authorities will be able to identify me. Just because its possible for some doesn't mean its possible for everyone.

 

Whatever Ivanava, you can't argue against me stating it is possible by stating it is possible.

 

Eight.

 

It was your OP and so far you haven't provided evidence to support your stance, all you have done is counter the counter argument with insults.

 

I haven't insulted you, just stated that your understanding of what a democracy is, is worse than what I would expect of a ten year old. It is an observation based on your views. What I certainly have done in this thread is provide an argument to support my stance, in fact, it is throughout this thread. If you bothered to read it rather than merely against it you could see that for yourself.

 

Nine.

 

I was under the impression they voted for a common market and not the European union.

 

And on all consequent alterations to the EU the UK had a vote and democratic representation in the EU as well. This is why the UK is not a part of Schengen and the Eurozone, but is in the EEA for example.

[ivanava]

Whatever Ivanava, you can't argue against me stating it is possible by stating it is possible.

 

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't insulted you, just stated that your understanding of what a democracy is, is worse than what I would expect of a ten year old. It is an observation based on your views. What I certainly have done in this thread is provide an argument to support my stance, in fact, it is throughout this thread. If you bothered to read it rather than merely against it you could see that for yourself.

 

We will have to agree to disagree, your idea of democracy is clearly different to the definition I have read, but unlike you I will refrain from being offensive just because we don't agree.

 

 

And on all consequent alterations to the EU the UK had a vote and democratic representation in the EU as well. This is why the UK is not a part of Schengen and the Eurozone, but is in the EEA for example.

 

Thats right, the people that represent some of the population made decisions that affect all the population, this is not democracy in its true form, which is the reason I said its not very democratic.

[tzijlstra]

Thats right, the people that represent some of the population made decisions that affect all the population, this is not democracy in its true form, which is the reason I said its not very democratic.

 

OK, so one more time because this is getting very tedious:

 

The way democracy works is that all people can vote for who should represent them.

 

This is done at an election.

 

Whoever gets most votes, according to the electoral system, represents all the people for that electoral period.

 

Not voting does not mean you are not represented.

 

Voting for the losing party does not mean you are not represented.

 

Thinking this is not democratic, does not make it undemocratic.