Has Farage been telling us porkies? Surely not..

[chalga]

It would be a national disaster if they did and for now there is nothing at all stopping them from coming.

 

Let's see if Farage will continue that style of fearmongering then.....the other parties will be hoping so,being as the figures yesterday showed up the UKIP campaign on the Rumanians and Bulgarians for what it was.

[ivanava]

The thing with statistics is you can twist them to suit your argument.

 

I recall on a previous thread someone mentioned that immigrants contribute £1.50 for every £1 they cost.

 

What exactly does that mean?

 

Does it take into account additional housing, schooling, health care requirements?

 

Does it take into account their cost when they're old and relying on a pension?

 

Does it take into those things that can't be priced but have a value to us all.....Loss of green belt land for more housing?

 

Does it take into account potential future insurance costs due to flooding, as more properties are built on flood plains because of the increase in population?

 

Could the £1.50 per immigrant be turned into £2.50 per immigrant if we were more selective about those we let in?

 

It's easy to throw numbers out there, but it's what's behind those numbers and the impact in other areas that really counts.

 

As the saying goes - There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

Regards

 

Doom

 

Too many questions all at once will make their heads explode.

[Zamo]

It would also be a national disaster if the entire population of Manchester moved to Birmingham. But it won't happen so there's no point worrying about it unless you enjoy being a deluded fool.

 

This is true. However, if average wages in Manchester were less than life on benefits in Birmingham then you would be a deluded fool not to think they would be a lot of movement (obviously not everyone!).

 

Which raises the question... would it make the people of Birmingham a group of xenophobic, bigoted, pitchfork-weilding, racists if they introduced entry controls to protect their local economy and community? Or, more to the point, would calling them that stop them from insisting the city leadership did it?

[chalga]

Yes, I was looking forward to figures telling us how many came from the countries. But we didn't get that did we? We got a smoke screen... and you accuse UKIP of being disingenuous with numbers!

 

They didn't provide us with an entry count either because there wasn't one or they don't want us to know. What we got instead was a number for those in work, which has dropped. Now, is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know do you? Can you work out from that figure how many entered the country in the first 3 months of this year? How many went home? How many are on benefits instead of working? How many are receiving in-work benefits? How many are being supported by social services instead of receiving direct welfare payments? How many are working on the black market and not paying any tax? How many are here making a living thieving? How many are making a positive financial contribution?

 

Why don't they simply tell us the facts if people are wrong about immigration? There can be only two reasons. The facts will either prove people are right to be concerned or they don't actually have the facts. Either way it actually proves immigration is out of control.

 

The problem about the figures released yesterday for you and UKIP ,for Bulgarians and Rumanians,is that it wasn't the one hoped for...........now if 29MILLION had never been mentioned in the first place,like Farage foolishly stoked up as much as he could,damage limitation could have been done,despite the 4,000 drop,but 29Million was fearmongered,so UKIP are,quite rightly,being called to account about the fearmongering they did.

 

---------- Post added 15-05-2014 at 07:48 ----------

 

The thing with statistics is you can twist them to suit your argument.

 

I recall on a previous thread someone mentioned that immigrants contribute £1.50 for every £1 they cost.

 

What exactly does that mean?

 

Does it take into account additional housing, schooling, health care requirements?

 

Does it take into account their cost when they're old and relying on a pension?

 

Does it take into those things that can't be priced but have a value to us all.....Loss of green belt land for more housing?

 

Does it take into account potential future insurance costs due to flooding, as more properties are built on flood plains because of the increase in population?

 

Could the £1.50 per immigrant be turned into £2.50 per immigrant if we were more selective about those we let in?

 

It's easy to throw numbers out there, but it's what's behind those numbers and the impact in other areas that really counts.

 

As the saying goes - There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

Regards

 

Doom

 

That is nothing to do with this thread,that is about immigration in general.This thread is about UKIP and the fearmongering they did about specifically,Bulgarian and Rumanian immigrants after 1/1/2014,and the TIDAL WAVE that the right wing politicians and media warned us all was coming...........hasn't happened quite like they said it would has it?

[ivanava]

The problem about the figures released yesterday for you and UKIP ,for Bulgarians and Rumanians,is that it wasn't the one hoped for...........now if 29MILLION had never been mentioned in the first place,like Farage foolishly stoked up as much as he could,damage limitation could have been done,despite the 4,000 drop,but 29Million was fearmongered,so UKIP are,quite rightly,being called to account about the fearmongering they did.

 

On the contrary I'm sure that everyone that wants better immigration control is delighted with the figures, I would love to be proven wrong by seeing immigration figures falling to 10's of thousands all on their own, but I think I will remain disappointed because the figures will stay high until something is done to control in inflow.

[Doom]

That is nothing to do with this thread,that is about immigration in general.This thread is about UKIP and the fearmongering they did about specifically,Bulgarian and Rumanian immigrants after 1/1/2014,and the TIDAL WAVE that the right wing politicians and media warned us all was coming...........hasn't happened quite like they said it would has it?

 

It was in response to Zamo's post.

 

The point is, isolated figures are meaningless unless you have the whole picture, which is what Zamo was saying.

 

People will twist and cherry pick numbers to suit their own argument.

 

Regards

 

Doom

[chalga]

On the contrary I'm sure that everyone that wants better immigration control is delighted with the figures, I would love to be proven wrong by seeing immigration figures falling to 10's of thousands all on their own, but I think I will remain disappointed because the figures will stay high until something is done to control in inflow.

 

Well,Farage was saying that the government had lost control of the borders yesterday,so the figures can't have been that good,just not bad enough for Farage from Bulgaria and Rumania.

[tzijlstra]

This is true. However, if average wages in Manchester were less than life on benefits in Birmingham then you would be a deluded fool not to think they would be a lot of movement (obviously not everyone!).

 

Which raises the question... would it make the people of Birmingham a group of xenophobic, bigoted, pitchfork-weilding, racists if they introduced entry controls to protect their local economy and community? Or, more to the point, would calling them that stop them from insisting the city leadership did it?

 

And tell me Zamo, how do people with hardly any money travel 2500 kilometres across Europe to get to a country where they have to live without money (benefits) for the first three months at least and probably a lot longer? And, more importantly, how do they get rich whilst being here on 65£ a week whilst having to rent privately?

 

Please do explain Zamo.

[Zamo]

They haven't got the facts because, again, this country's information control systems are pathetic. You could call it being out of control, but is that a reason to just shut up shop or is it a reason to finally sort out those systems?

 

UKIP doesn't propose shutting up shop. UKIP proposes leaving thr EU so the country can sort out those systems, which are currently dictated by the EU.

 

And here is a summary of the other parties positions:

 

Labour - In denial and trying to lie to us again that there is no real problem to solve. They may do some minor token gesture tinkering with immigration policy but they cannot be trusted to really tackle the issue.

 

Tories - Cameron has tried to persuade the EU to negotiate re free movement but they are not interested. He has even thrown the veto-toy out of the pram by threatening to use it to block new member states from joining. The EU is still not interested.

 

Lib Dems: Same as Labour but perhaps even weaker.

 

UKIP need to do well if there is to be any change. Firstly, we need to scare the main parties into a changing policy and toughening up. Secondly, we need to scare the rest of the EU by making them realise the people of this country will press the exit button if they do not agree to review freedom of movement laws and reign in other EU laws (especially human rights) not relating to trade.

[tzijlstra]

UKIP doesn't propose shutting up shop. UKIP proposes leaving thr EU so the country can sort out those systems, which are currently dictated by the EU.

 

The systems here are not dictated by the EU in any way shape or form, porkies Zamo. The UK has every right to upgrade its information procedures and processes and it has every right to maintain its own border controls and population registration. Can you tell me where it says they can't?

 

And if UKIP is not proposing shutting up shop, what is UKIP proposing?

 

PS don't forget the previous question!